The Australian antivax movement takes its toll
In America, people who claim vaccines cause autism are a major health threat. Some of these folks are just parents, people concerned about their kids, people desperately looking for a cause for a devastating illness. Others are vocal advocates of nonsense, saying things that are proven beyond reasonable doubt to be untrue.
The end result? Kids, including infants, are getting sick, and some of them are dying. Never, ever forget that, no matter how loudly these people yell, and no matter what garbage they spout (including, inevitably, in the comments that will follow this very post). Babies are dying.
In Australia, this movement is taking root as well. Calling the alarm to this, a TV program in Oz called "Sunday Night" aired an excellent exposé of what happens when parents don’t vaccinate their kids: they risk their children’s lives, and those of others. In the case shown on the TV show, a four-week-old baby, Dana McCaffery, died of whooping cough. This innocent infant wasn’t eligible for vaccination yet, but the lack of herd immunity — that region has lower-than-average vaccination rates — sealed her fate. The fact that other parents didn’t vaccinate their kids gave that little girl a death sentence.
Here’s the segment from that program. Warning (and I’m serious): if you are a parent, or any kind of feeling human being, this segment is seriously disturbing. I could barely watch it.
Maggie at Sceptic’s Book has written quite a moving article about this report and the result. The reporter in this TV program, Rebecca Maddern, did a pretty good job, though giving way too much time and credence to antivax mouthpiece Meryl Dorey, who spouts the usual antivax mendacities about vaccination, including bragging — bragging — that she was exposed to diseases when she was a kid, and didn’t get sick. At the six minute mark of that clip, she chillingly says that no one dies from measles or whooping cough.
Ms. Dorey, please tell that to the parents of Dana McCaffery, the baby who was just one month old when she died from whooping cough.
The Australian skeptics are trying to get the word out about this, including giving praise to the reporter (who, it should be noted, cut to a picture of Dana McCaffery right after Dorey spouted her awful, horrifying garbage). I encourage you to watch that clip (if you can stomach it), read what Maggie wrote, and then email the station about this very, very serious problem.
The antivaxxers claim to be concerned about children… but their total lack of critical thinking, their denial of the research, and their wholesale belief in conspiracy theories and antiscience rhetoric is making children sick. And some of these children are dying.
It’s that simple. Vaccinate your kids. The life you save may be your own child’s, and it may very well be the life of a child of some other parent who doesn’t have the choice you have.
Vaccinate.
What’s the harm huh? As a father of an almost 2 y/o and a second baby coming up next month I am fighting my tears watching this.
A sad reminder of the actual harm caused by Flim Flam does.
On a side note, the new episode of Law & Order SVU last night covered this– a baby died of measles after an unvaccinated child spread the disease in a city park. They did a good job covering the facts about vaccination, and the “other side” discussion (usually the detectives discuss a topic and each one takes up a different position in the public debate) was fairly reasonable (the crank character didn’t bring up the Big Pharma conspiracy, which was a surprise).
It may be too much to hope, but I would like to think TV series like SVU perform a public service by educating people about this. (They also hit homeopathy and AIDS-denial earlier in the season, and every other time woo has shown up it’s been shot down.)
Law and Order performs a public service by “educating” people on this or any topic? You’re kidding me, right? That was the most one sided piece of propaganda I’ve ever seen. And, putting aside the vaccination argument… does it not strike you as ominious that the call for government control over how we raise our children is reaching a fevered pitch? Do we really want the government telling us what is best for our children? I don’t.
I for one don’t want ignorant or apathetic parents being allowed to put my children at risk. Sometimes we DO need the government to take control, for our own good. Some things are too important to leave to personal “choice”, ESPECIALLY when it affects others.
“Sometimes we DO need the government to take control, for our own good.”
Then communism is for you.
I’m sorry, but I really don’t understand your rejoinder there.
Though I cannot speak for Mat, it seems to me that when he was referring to governmental controls, it was more along the lines of ensuring public safety rather than eliminating class barriers and creating common ownership of goods. There are regulatory agencies within the government (and I’m referring to the U.S. government, just for clarification) that control the quality of products for public benefit. It’s the reason we don’t have sawdust in our meat products anymore. Well, that and Upton Sinclair.
Without these federal agencies controlling standards and demanding that these standards be met, it is very probable that unscrupulous people only interested in profit would participate in practices detrimental to public good and health. Asbestos is not used as an insulator any longer, for instance, because of governmental controls.
I highly doubt that the desire for some sort of check and quality control on products intended for mass consumption makes me a communist.
Hi Sonya,
My original comment was that we don’t want the government taking control of our children to which Mat said that sometimes we DO need the government to take control. I read that to be he meant more control than simply regulatory agencies established to insure we have clean water, safety food (though again, the FDA… not so great at their job) etc.
When we’re talking about regulatory agencies like the CDC (for the vaccine issue), I love them and I’m all for them. They have helped me tremendously in my quest to educate myself and to make the best decision for my children.
Where the disagreement comes is when someone tells me I HAVE to vaccinate my children, that if I don’t I’m guilty of a ‘crime’ and that the government should take control of my children and vaccinate them because, if I choose not to, it is because I’m too stupid to know what’s good for me.
And, if we want to hand over our freedom to choose to central government, that’s the first step on the swift slope to communism.
Since I can’t really reply to your comment directly, Lady Why, I guess I have to reply to my own and hope you see this.
I’m not going to try and convince you of the extreme importance of vaccination, as you do not seem to want to be swayed in your opinion.
Ideologically speaking, communism is about the eradication of the class system. There are no poor people, there are no wealthy people, everyone gets the same amount. When you say “if we want to hand over our freedom to choose to central government, that’s the first step on the swift slope to communism.”, I have to disagree. That’s totalitarianism.
Just because the former Communist Soviet Union was a totalitarian police state does not mean that is communism. (I’m not counting the People’s Republic of China because they’ve long since abandoned their true communist beginnings.) Just being ideologically picky!
Personally I think that the relatively minor risks caused by vaccines are far, far outweighed by the benefits.
Hi Sonya,
I agree with you. On the semantics of communism vs. totalitarianism and on the benefits of vaccines.
I am always willing to be swayed in my opinion. I am always willing to be convinced I’m wrong because I’d much rather understand the truth rather than be right. :-) I LOVE a good debate!
As a point of reference, I am a vaccinating parent. I have six children, all have been fully vaccinated except the baby who is in the midst of his vaccine schedule. I do have concerns about vaccines and it is with much fear and trepidation, hours of research and careful consideration of practically every study ever done on the subject that I decided the benefits outweighed the risk for my children. I clarify that because I get the sense that you think I’m a non-vaccinating parent.
@ lady why,
the govornment already does have some control over how we raise our children. You can’t beat them, deprive them of food etc. and if you failed to provide medical attention and the child dies, you could be charged with criminal negligance. So technically the govornment “forces” you to provide appropriate medical care for your children. The reason that this is a bit hazy it that vaccines are preventative, not a curative treatment.
Hi Scott,
I agree. And, I want the government’s involvement to stop right there.
@ Lady Why
I don’t think that you do agree, if you understand my point. I put vaccines in with the previous grouping (akin to negligence)
Well, I assumed you meant enforcing the current laws, and so far vaccines are not mandatory. Of course, there are lots of people trying to make them so. I think you already know my position on that based on my many other comments.
“Putting aside the vaccination argument”?
No, you can’t just put aside the entire point of Phil’s posting because it doesn’t lead to the desired conclusion.
Not vaccinating kills babies. You don’t get to ignore that.
Sometimes vaccinating kills babies too, you don’t get to ignore that either! Mat in Sydney, you may want to live under socialist rule but I do not and I hope most Americans don’t either (though with our current political climate, I’m not so sure) I can debate the safety and dangers of vaccine all day long but what bothers me more than that is the willingness to give up our parental rights and hand over control of our lives to the government. I want my government to build my roads and defend my country. I don’t want the government telling me what to feed my kids, how to educate my kids and what the best medical care should be for my kids. That’s my decision!! And, while we’re talking, WHO gets to decide what is best for my children? Obama? Congress? Who is qualified to tell everyone how they should live?
Hmm perhaps the government shouldn’t be allowed to make us put our kids in carseats, require that they receive education, prohibit their abuse,etc.
This argument is only slightly less dangerous to the individual child, than attempting to justify denying antibiotics to a baby with pneumonia, due to the parents religious convictions.
This argument is far more dangerous to children collectively. It’s only very recently (well into this century) that at least in ‘first world’ societies smaller families are more the norm. One reason is the move away from agrarian economies. A second is the virtual elimination (by virtue of vaccination) of childhood diseases that both maimed and killed requiring larger families so that some of your DNA would ‘make it’.
We all love our children. However it’s a logical fallacy that we have the capacity, simple access to all the data, required to make every possible best decision on their behalf, simply because we’re their parents (in this particular case, unless perhaps you’re an epidemiologist or something similar).
The reality is that every day we defer decisions about our childrens welfare to the ‘state’. Anyone on this list examined the fatality data for kids in and out of car seats? Probably not, but you still buckle them up. If you are really concerned about a particular issue, then even as a ‘layperson’ you have to put on your science hat and learn enough about statistics, analysis, medical trials, and the science of the subject in question to make an informed decision. Not let Jenny McCarthy or some senator inform your child’s health decisions.
Several recently completed metastudies have failed to substantiate any link, whatsoever, between vaccines and autism, even more specifically thimerosal and autism. There are a boatload of studies that establish the efficacy of modern vaccines. That fact that the anti-vaccine groups have not acknowlegded this is quite disturbing.
Is your child’s (and their friend’s) health worth ‘making a stand’ that so obviously contradicts the evidence?
Erich,
I think we agree on a lot. That said, not vaccinating your child is NOT child abuse. I hear the child abuse argument a lot. “So, if a parent wants to decide to abuse their child, you have no problem with that?” Yes, I have a problem with that. This is not the same thing.
You say, “We all love our children. However it’s a logical fallacy that we have the capacity, simple access to all the data, required to make every possible best decision on their behalf, simply because we’re their parents (in this particular case, unless perhaps you’re an epidemiologist or something similar). ”
My question to you then is WHO has that ability? Aren’t government agencies, doctors, politicians, etc. in the same situation? No one has all the answers. The question becomes who is going to be willing to put in the research time to decide what’s best for my child? Me? Or someone else who doesn’t have a vested interest in what’s best for my child?
I can’t think of one decision about my child that I defer to the state.
I do buckle my kids up in car seats because I know it’s best for them. I’d do it whether or not there was a law. There is no risk to a child riding in a car seat. If there were, I’d feel that parents have the right to decide if the risk is worth the benefit just as I do with vaccines.
I’m not sure I agree that we don’t have big families any more because vaccines have eliminated diseases. I have six children and counting so I’m probably not your average sample. :-)
“If you are really concerned about a particular issue, then even as a ‘layperson’ you have to put on your science hat and learn enough about statistics, analysis, medical trials, and the science of the subject in question to make an informed decision. Not let Jenny McCarthy or some senator inform your child’s health decisions.”
Amen and amen! We completely and wholeheartedly agree. In fact, I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Again, I agree completely with what you said about the studies and their lack of ‘air time’ amongst the militant anti-vaccine crowd. You’re exactly right!
“Is your child’s (and their friend’s) health worth ‘making a stand’ that so obviously contradicts the evidence?”
My child’s health? No. Someone else’s child’s health? That’s for them to decide. It is a parent’s right to decide what is in the best interest of their child!
New evidence for the genetic causes of autism, sadly unless a celebrity talks about it this information won’t get to the right people:
http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-na-autism29-2009apr29,0,4441598.story
I wonder how many of these antivax protestors are secretly queuing for flu vaccinations as we speak.
Despite being vaccinated I got whooping cough when I was 5. My chest hurts just thinking about it. I spent an incredibly painful number weeks coughing and my doctor blames that for the chronic respiratory infections I had until I was in my early teens. Whooping cough is nothing to toy with.
It’s hard not to let your emotions get involved when seeing the results of those that campaign for ignorance/lack of reason. I think people following this would fall under the category of “unfit parents” because they are not providing the best protection for their children.
I tell everyone I know that has kids, will be having kids, knows someone who has/will have kids, etc. to make sure each child is vaccinated.
Here’s an informative list of what the U.S. government requires concerning vaccinations for children: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/laws/
I do not know the Australian government’s requirements for vaccinations in children, but if someone knows please post a link to it.
Jose -“I wonder how many of these antivax protestors are secretly queuing for flu vaccinations as we speak.”
Not as many as you might think. They may remember how the 1976 swine flu vaccine caused Guillain-Barré syndrome, which killed more people than the flu did.
As a PICU nurse, I was too often on the other end of that story while caring for infants in the PICU with Pertussis, measles, and chicken pox. Some died, even with the most advanced science any hospital has to offer.To confuse matters more, tiny infants with Pertussis don’t always cough. I have cared for some that just look septic, and we can’t properly ventilate or keep their blood pressure up. I have seen them quickly go into multi-organ system failure as we helplessly treat them with every thing science and technology has to offer.
Gwen, my hat is off to anyone who has the heart and guts to be a PICU nurse.
Bob – The Australian vaccination schedule is similar to that in the US. You can find it here.
http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips
As for the report, I was in tears at the end. How anyone can say the Whooping cough is not a killer baffles me. Did anyone else think it strange that Meryl Dorey claimed she (and her children) all had whooping cough and it was “no worse than a bad cough”. What’s the bet they did not have whooping cough at all, but just self-diagnosed.
Absolutely mind boggling.
I wouldn’t depend on government, but I do depend on science and evidence-based medicine to tell me what’s right for my, and everyone else’s, kids.
I’ve seen video of people in iron lungs. I have looked inside one at a medical museum. I have heard first-hand descriptions from people who have survived pertussis. There is no reason not to vaccinate against those diseases, and people who choose to skip vaccination and then spread them are guilty of reckless endangerment and homicide.
“I wouldn’t depend on government, but I do depend on science and evidence-based medicine to tell me what’s right for my, and everyone else’s, kids.”
On that we agree completely. This call for the government to step in and “protect” me because I don’t have the good sense and reason to weigh the evidence and decide for myself is asinine.
You’ve seen iron lungs and talked to people who have survived pertussis? I’m personal friends with a family that has a 40 year old man in their family with the mind of a 2 year old because of the seizures he suffered from the DPT vaccine way back when he was two months old. Vaccines are not ‘one size fits all’. They are dangerous. If not, why do I have to sign a waiver stating I know the risks and won’t hold my doctor responsible every time one of my children gets one? You are condemning people for jumping on an irrational emotional bandwagon and not vaccinating. Well, I say those of you shouting for the ‘all mighty, all knowing’ government to decide for me what’s right for my child are the ones jumping on the irrational emotional bandwagon based on children who have contracted vaccine preventable illnesses.
Let’s face it. Germs are out there. Measles exists. Whooping cough exists. Some people are going to get them vaccinated or not. My daughter was exposed to whooping cough two years ago when she was hospitalized by a nurse that came down with it after my daughter came home. Is that nurse guilty of ‘reckless endangerment and homicide’? I don’t know if she was vaccinated or not but CLEARLY vaccines wear off, sometimes don’t work, etc. etc.
Sometimes people die of the flu. Does that mean everyone who doesn’t get a flu shot is guilty of ‘reckless endangerment and homicide’? Are the flu shot manufacturer’s guilty when they make a vaccine that misses the mark on this year’s flu strain?
If you are so worried about your child contracting a dread disease, vaccinate him! If they aren’t old enough to be vaccinated yet, keep them out of the public square! I say it’s the parents responsibility to protect their children one way or the other.
Some children are more at risk to be damaged by vaccines than others and parents ought to have the right to make informed, educated and reasoned decisions on the best course of action for their child. It’s a crap shoot, I’ll give you that. Some parents are going to vaccinate and their child is going to have a tragic reaction that will kill or damage their child for life. Some parents are going to vaccinate and their child is going to get the disease anyway. (My own pediatrician’s son contracted whooping cough when he was a child even though he was vaccinated) Some parents are not going to vaccinate and their child is going to come down with the very disease that the vaccine could have prevented. There are no guarantees in life.
I am a capable, reasonable, thinking mother who is best able to decide what is best for my child. I have a vested interest in the life of that child and it is my responsibility to do what is in his best interest. Not some idiot in Washington who has never met my child and cares MUCH more for their pharmaceutical lobbyist friends than for the health and well being of my child.
If we follow your logic, why don’t we force all parents to stop feeding their children soda, sugar and trans fats. Every overweight adult with a bad heart should charge his parents with ‘reckless endangerment and homicide’. Let’s appoint a ‘Healthy Eating Czar’ to come in and tell parents what they can and cannot feed their kids for dinner. Because parents are putting their children at risk by not having enough smarts to figure out proper nutrition on their own.
I’ll vote for liberty and freedom every time!
I have a comment in moderation right now. But here are a couple of points that need to be addressed:
1) You said that babies die from vaccination. Please provide the data. The real data, not the self selected VAERS stuff. It has to been the data that has been reviewed and noted to be purely vaccine related, and something I can find in my local medical school library. Which vaccines? How many? And the relative risk compared to the disease (the CDC Pink Book has data that shows pertussis kills over a dozen American babies per year, my comment in moderation has the link). Remember that the plural of anecdote is not data (my kid suffered seizures before any vaccine, seizures happen: correlation does not equal causation).
2) You said “If you are so worried about your child contracting a dread disease, vaccinate him!” … except no vaccine is 100% effective (it ranges between 80% to 95%). There will be those where the vaccine just does not work. Though, fortunately, if someone who is vaccinated gets the disease it is usually milder.
3) You continue with “If they aren’t old enough to be vaccinated yet, keep them out of the public square! I say it’s the parents responsibility to protect their children one way or the other.”… You do realize that the MMR is not given until the child is over a year old, and that children in San Diego were infected with measles in a clinic waiting room with a kid who measles in Switzerland came to that clinic? Your “solution” is full of flaws. Or are you advocating that every child be kept in the house until they are 15 months old and that the doctors and nurses do house calls?
4) To repeat: there is no governmental agency in the USA that mandates vaccines. There are public health policies administered by the same agencies that regulate for clean water, sewage treatment, food safety, and other public health issues like vaccine RECOMMENDATIONS. If you have an issue with your tax moneys going to regulatory agencies like your county health department, the FDA, the FTC, the CDC or even the FAA (hey, we don’t need safe air travel, right?), then go ahead and write your local and federal legislators to remove funding from all public health related agencies. Though there are a couple of words to think about before you do: melamine milk.
1) Here are a list of 75 articles where some of the adverse vaccine reactions are tracked and evaluated.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vsd/vsd_publications.htm
Here is a link to our CDC’s specific side effects for the pertussis which is the one I mentioned having a personal “anecdotal” knowledge of:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm
“Severe Problems (Very Rare)
Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses) Several other severe problems have been reported after DTaP vaccine. These include:
Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
Permanent brain damage.”
Also, if you’re really in the mood you can read through the bazillions of articles at The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting site:
http://vaers.hhs.gov/
These are the things the ‘pro-vaccine’ people put out so I think we could both agree on those.
By the way, the new Rotovirus vaccine came on the market right after I had my last baby. It was quickly pulled because of adverse reactions. Should parents not have the right to decline letting their children be the guinea pigs for new vaccines that come on the market, or should we allow our children to experience negative side effects for the ‘good of the many’?
2) No it doesn’t work 100% which is my point. People are still going to get sick from time to time. It’s not automatically the fault of a parent who decided the risk was too high for her child. What about parents that have children with cancer. Even though vaccines would wreak havoc on their compromised immune systems, should they be forced to have vaccines? Should their parents not be allowed to decide?
3) It is precisely those flaws that I’m trying to point out so you can see how ludicrous the arguments are. Measles is usually a mild illness. If you are panic stricken that your child will get measles before the age of one, then I’m all for you holing up in a cabin in the woods some where. If you are reasonable and weigh the risks, then take your child out. He might get strep throat and die too. He might be killed in a car accident. Being next to a non-vaccinated kid in a waiting room is not the most dangerous thing in all the world. People die from chicken pox. Does that mean everyone that has not been vaccinated (which is everyone born before 1999) is guilty of ‘reckless endangerment’ for the one child that might catch it from him and might die. We can not protect everyone from every case scenario.
4) There isn’t yet but isn’t that the very thing being called for here in this article and these comments? Everyone is saying that parents who don’t vaccinate are stupid, emotional dolts and someone needs to step in a save them. Who is that someone supposed to be if not the government?
Don’t even get me started on the FDA, that’s a rant for another day. But, yes, I have no problem with my tax dollars going toward police, road crews, the FAA, the CDC, etc. I’m thrilled with the recommendations of the CDC. They have come in handy to me many times as I have spent countless hours researching this very topic. I have no problem with the FAA until the FAA tells me I HAVE to fly on an airplane. Provide me with what you consider safe air travel and let me decide whether or not I want to take the risk to fly. Don’t force me to fly because YOU say it’s ‘safer’ than car travel. Planes do still crash and people do still die even with the FAA. Same principle.
Again, if I depended on my government to tell me what’s safe to eat, I’d have died of salmonella from a tainted tomato by now! I prefer to choose locally grown food at farms I can visit. But, that’s just me.
HCN, Since it’s taking a while to publish my original comment due to my links, I copied and pasted points 2 – 4 which contain no links so the conversation can progress. Here is that portion of my reply:
2) No it doesn’t work 100% which is my point. People are still going to get sick from time to time. It’s not automatically the fault of a parent who decided the risk was too high for her child. What about parents that have children with cancer. Even though vaccines would wreak havoc on their compromised immune systems, should they be forced to have vaccines? Should their parents not be allowed to decide?
3) It is precisely those flaws that I’m trying to point out so you can see how ludicrous the arguments are. Measles is usually a mild illness. If you are panic stricken that your child will get measles before the age of one, then I’m all for you holing up in a cabin in the woods some where. If you are reasonable and weigh the risks, then take your child out. He might get strep throat and die too. He might be killed in a car accident. Being next to a non-vaccinated kid in a waiting room is not the most dangerous thing in all the world. People die from chicken pox. Does that mean everyone that has not been vaccinated (which is everyone born before 1999) is guilty of ‘reckless endangerment’ for the one child that might catch it from him and might die. We can not protect everyone from every case scenario.
4) There isn’t yet but isn’t that the very thing being called for here in this article and these comments? Everyone is saying that parents who don’t vaccinate are stupid, emotional dolts and someone needs to step in a save them. Who is that someone supposed to be if not the government?
Don’t even get me started on the FDA, that’s a rant for another day. But, yes, I have no problem with my tax dollars going toward police, road crews, the FAA, the CDC, etc. I’m thrilled with the recommendations of the CDC. They have come in handy to me many times as I have spent countless hours researching this very topic. I have no problem with the FAA until the FAA tells me I HAVE to fly on an airplane. Provide me with what you consider safe air travel and let me decide whether or not I want to take the risk to fly. Don’t force me to fly because YOU say it’s ’safer’ than car travel. Planes do still crash and people do still die even with the FAA. Same principle.
Again, if I depended on my government to tell me what’s safe to eat, I’d have died of salmonella from a tainted tomato by now! I prefer to choose locally grown food at farms I can visit. But, that’s just me.
Regarding your point #2: Of course children with being treated for cancer or AIDS shouldn’t be vaccinated. But they are also one of the big reasons that the healthy ones should. If you are worried about what a vaccine or two would do to a child with a compromised immune system, think about what the effect of catching one of these diseases would be.
So, Knell, who gets to decide the exceptions? Will a child with a seizure disorder be exempt? One who has had a previous reaction? One with autism?
“Sometimes people die of the flu. Does that mean everyone who doesn’t get a flu shot is guilty of ‘reckless endangerment and homicide’?”
Imagine if being sick in public could get you arrested for ‘reckless endangerment’. Maybe that would motivate you to get a flu shot.
Ha! Yes, I guess it would!
HCN, I posted a lenghty reply to you that is awaiting moderation. I didn’t want you to think I ignored your points. Since moderation is taking a bit of time, I thought I’d let you know it’s out there. The links I included must be bogging it down.
You may have to wait a while, since my first comment with two little URLs is still in moderation. Just put in the cites that show that the DTaP is worse than pertussis, tetanus and diphtheria and that the MMR is riskier than measles, mumps and rubella.
Like these from PubMed:
Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.
N Engl J Med. 2001 Aug 30;345(9):656-61.
The risk of seizures after receipt of whole-cell pertussis or measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine.
Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006 Mar;160(3):302-9.
Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation.
Expert Rev Vaccines. 2005 Apr;4(2):173-84.
Acellular pertussis vaccines in Japan: past, present and future.
Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005 Dec;159(12):1136-44.
Economic evaluation of the 7-vaccine routine childhood immunization schedule in the United States, 2001.
J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 2005 Jun;46(6):572-9.
No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study.
J Autism Dev Disord. 2007 Feb;37(2):210-7.
MMR-vaccine and regression in autism spectrum disorders: negative results presented from Japan.
Remember, do not post links to news reports or to certain so-called vaccine “information” sites (NVIC is often called the National Vaccine misInformation Corporation, especially Clifford “let’s suppress bloggers with subpoenas” Shoemaker on its board of directors), lawyer sites or papers that were paid for by lawyers or those who are professional “experts” (that covers the Geiers and Wakefield), nor to any paper in “Medical Hypothesis” (if you want to know why, look up the word “hypothesis”, it is a journal that will publish if the check clears).
How about the vaccine insert from the manufacturers themselves. You can go to the GlaxoSmithKline website and look at the product insert for INFANRIX which is a brand of DTaP. It lists the studies and the incidents of reaction in their studies.
I know you’re not saying vaccines are perfectly safe because your own studies listed show increased risk of seizures for DTaP. What they don’t show, and what I think you’re trying to tell me, is no one can PROVE that the vaccine and the vaccine alone caused a seizure, brain injury or death. And, I’ll give you that. It would be impossible to prove because you could never eliminate all the variables. BUT, we do know that vaccines CAN cause seizures. Seizures CAN lead to brain injuries and sometimes death. These things are possible. Vaccines are not 100% safe. Parents, therefore, have the right to decide for themselves if the risk is worth the benefit. If I had a child with a seizure disorder, you bet I would not vaccinate him with a vaccine that COULD cause seizures.
I agree with your studies. Vaccines are more safe than not for most kids. Vaccines save lives. Herd immunity saves lives. The risks of vaccines are small. But, there are risks. I have to sign a release form every time my child has a vaccine. That’s not a decision I take lightly nor is it a decision I want made for me.
Just like the FAA example… make planes safe, make air traffic safe, then let ME decide if I want to risk flying on a plane. I want the pharmaceutical manufacturers to make vaccines. I want the CDC to study them up one side and down the other. Offer me the safest, most effective vaccine you can. Then let ME decide if I want to inject it into my body or my child’s body.
I don’t want my government telling me I have to fly on an airplane and I don’t want my government telling me I have to vaccinate. That’s my choice based on my decision as to what is best for my child.
I agree, in fact I don’t like the fact that the govornment says that I can’t drive 200 mph in a school zone, it’s my choice and it shouldn’t have anything to do with anyone else. So what if I am able to carry a disease that could have been prevented, and so what if it kills someone else, it’s my choice.
This isn’t about obeying laws. We have laws and we should obey them. You have the potential to carry a disease at any time with the potential to kill someone. The swine flu is killing people. Should everyone be forced to get the swine flu shot because you might catch the flu and you might give it to someone who might die from it? The last time around more people died from the shot than from the disease. It’s all in your perspective.
Last time around??? Not really sure which “last time around you’re talking about. And yes if vaccines were able to stop the swine flu in it’s track then it think it should be manditory for people who want to be a part of our society. Not to mention that more people die daily from regular flu than the swine flu, more people need to get their flu shot.
The last swine flu outbreak occurred in February 1976 in Fort Dix, New Jersey and one person died. A swine flu vaccine was given to people from October 1976 to December 1976. The swine flu vaccine caused many side effects, including Guillain-Barre syndrome and 25 people died FROM THE VACCINE. Sometimes the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease. Glad the vaccine wasn’t mandatory!
Lady Why cried “Sometimes vaccinating kills babies too, you don’t get to ignore that either!”
Well since pertussis kills over a dozen American babies each year, and those numbers are increasing (see the CDC Pink Book, especially Appendix G, and this slide set http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/Slides/Pertussis10.ppt ), would you mind telling us what the real statistics are for vaccines killing babies?
Please do not cite VAERS, because that is a self-selected survey of the lowest kind of quality. Just cite some actual medical analysis of the data that was published in a journal I can access in my local medical school.
By the way, in no way shape or form does any government agency, national or local, in the USA mandate vaccines. Vaccine requirements are only for admittance to public schools (oh, yeah… yada yada… government schools, yada yada). There are vaccine guidelines and recommendations, which are a far cry from the actual mandatory vaccine schedule of Japan (which has changed over the years with some interesting results, first by delaying pertussis until age two, only to have dozens of babies die from pertussis, to making measles vaccines voluntary, only to to close college campuses and more dozens of people die from measles — and autism levels stayed the same, http://idsc.nih.go.jp/yosoku/vacpdf/EN_05-1.pdf ).
I see you are not a fan of public health. Perhaps you would like to see the US Public Health Service dismantled, along with the CDC, the FDA and perhaps, let’s go whole hog and get rid of the FAA, FTC, FCC and every other national service that does not fit into your idea of what should be paid for, and make the buyer beware. We can then go back to the “good ol’ days” of the “Swill Milk Scandal” which killed over 8000 kids in New York in the mid-1800s (which was written in the NY Times at the time when Chinese children were being killed by adulterated milk!).
Lady Why said “I don’t want my government telling me I have to vaccinate.”
Exactly where is it written that you must vaccinate in the USA?
As has been noted multiple times in this thread: Vaccines are not mandatory anywhere in the USA. They may be required for entry in public schools, but not only are there other schools, homeschooling, there are ways to circumvent the requirements (though in many public schools unvaxed kids need to stay home when there are outbreaks — during the mumps outbreak in the MidWest one parent objected to her child being refused access to the school, until she was reminded that was part of agreement she signed to send her unvaxed kid to their school)
All I can say is that you are very naive.
I have lived in a country where if you were caught without proof of a yellow fever vaccine you would be taken into custody, taken to a clinic and immediately given the yellow fever vaccine. No consent needed at the end of an automatic weapon. This was also the country where shipments of a foreign newspaper with critical articles on the leader were confiscated at the airport and destroyed, oh and need I mention that people tended to disappear? Less than a decade after leaving my high school chemistry teacher was murdered by agents of that country’s “leader.”
You have no idea what it is to live under a dictatorship.
I had that experience by being the dependent of a career military officer. One among many who have sacrificed much for the freedoms you enjoy as a US citizen. (as a military dependent I spent a third of my youth living overseas and graduated from the 9th school district I attended)
It is not written that we have to vaccinate our children. At the moment it is still voluntary. There are a lot of people trying to change that, however. What gets me riled up are people calling for compulsory vaccinations. I keep saying we don’t want government telling us what to do because of the people calling for the government to do just that! In the video piece here in this blog post, the pediatrician toward the end is asked if vaccinations should be compulsory and he said YES. The dad who lost his baby girl in the piece said the government should ‘take control’. An earlier commenter, Mat, said that sometimes the government should step in and take control of those of us ‘someone’ deems unfit to make decisions for ourselves.
I hope I’m being naive in thinking we are on the brink of losing our freedom to choose. I think we Americans take our freedoms for granted and are all too willing to hand them over to charismatic leaders especially on issues that ‘sound good’ like protecting children from dread diseases. I think we’ve become complacent on just how precious that freedom is and that we don’t want our government telling us to vaccinate. That’s a step in the direction of the country you described. I haven’t personally lived under a dictatorship and I hope I never do.
I will say that though vaccines are not mandatory, they are being forced on us in subtle ways. Pediatricians in our area will not take patients who don’t vaccinate. If they do, they will not be allowed into our local ‘Children’s Health System’ which would mean they’d have no privileges at our local Children’s Hospital. So if you’re a non-vaccinating parent and your child gets sick, you won’t have a doctor. The doctors and nurses give us a hard time, we sign even more waivers saying we know we are doing our child potential harm by refusing to vaccinate and on and on.
Then there are the groups pushing for mandatory vaccinations aided by Hollywood and ridiculous shows like the Law and Order episode mentioned previously.
All I’m saying to those who think parents should be made to vaccinate their children is to take a deep breath and consider what you’d be giving up. I want to keep them voluntary.
“I hope I’m being naive in thinking we are on the brink of losing our freedom to choose.”
You are being naive, I hate to say.
Now, I am a libertarian by practice so you will always get me on preserving personal freedoms,
however,
Our freedoms end at the very point that they endanger other people. You cannot ignore herd immunity as an argument for compulsory vaccination.
True enough, but you can’t force me to endanger my child to keep from endangering other children.
I guess we’ll have to wait and see which one of us is naive. I hope it’s me. :-)
I would argue your risk assessment is inherently flawed and selfishly biased.
We vaccinate people against these diseases precisely because the risk of vaccination is orders of magnitude less than the risk of being unvaccinated.
It is selfish and small-worlded to think that this tiny risk to your one child is worth the much realistic and larger risk to the population as a whole (including your one child, as well)
Actually, Joe, the level of risk depends on the child. Some children, the risk of the vaccine is quite large. You don’t get to say ho high the risk is for MY child.
And, I don’t think assessing my child’s risk is ‘inherently flawed’ or ‘selfishly biased’. You can’t know my child’s risk factors so you can make that judgment.
To say that the risk for MY CHILD is ‘orders of magnitude less than the risk of being unvaccinated’ is ‘inherently flawed and selifshly biased’, in my opinion, because you don’t know my child’s risk factors!
Also, how much more ‘small worlded’ can you be to say that my one non-vaccinated child poses a risk to the larger population as a whole? What if my child never acquired a dread disease to spread? Or what if everyone else is vaccinated? Then there is no risk to them. You can’t assume my non-vaccinated child, simply by the fact he’s non-vaccinated, is a risk to anyone.
Is she naive in thinking we are on the brink of losing our freedom to choose?
Yes.
She has no clue what it is like to live in a country where freedom is restricted.
Her only argument is that the new president is liberal and a democrat. That’s it… nothing else. She has ignored our constitution and the fact that health laws are enforced locally (at the state and county level).
Did any of you guys take a basic civics course in high school? Or even some basic science?
HCN, That’s not my only argument. I’m a big proponent of state’s rights. The current political climate is much in favor of infringing on state’s rights. We are lobbying our state legislature to introduce legislation asserting the sovereignty of the state. It’s an important issue.
How restricted do my freedoms have to be for me to ‘have a clue’? I don’t have to live in Russia for me to have an understanding of what it is like and know that I’d prefer not to live like that.
How about compulsory hand washing?
While, yes, if everyone simply washed their hands as often as is recommended, the world would be a lot safer place, however…
False analogy, here is why:
1) Vaccinations are a one (or a few) time event in life; hand washing is a learned, repeatable behavior.
2) it is inherently impractical to enforce hand washing in the world…just try and argue otherwise. Vaccinations, however, are extremely practical to enforce.
3) there is no such thing as herd immunity from increased hand-washing. The germs for which hand washing is effective against are mainly from our own body every time we use the restroom. The germs are ever present and can infect anyone at anytime, hand washing does not provide an affirmative defense against infection the same way vaccinations do.
When can we expect the uniformed US Public Health Service coming to your homes with mobile vaccine clinics and automatic weapons to force you to vaccinate?
Is that what we are on the brink of?
Personally I think the “government is forcing us to something or is going to force us to do something” a very silly argument.
I would rather see the science.
Um, HCN, have you MET our current president? I’m not sure about his science but I’m pretty sure about his socialism. :-)
What does meeting a president have to do with science? Your calls to socialism and other such nonsense are silly.
I can assume than none of your children have an appointment next Monday to take either the AP American Government or AP Comparative Government tests (my 18 year old son is taking both). Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with both of those subjects, because your statements show not only a basic lack of science education, but also basic knowledge on how society works.
Ack! Monday is tomorrow! He is taking both AP governments tests tomorrow! I hope he recovers from last night’s senior prom, and he has to go to work in less than an hour. Gotta go and wake him up!
I ask about your knowledge of the president because you seem to think that we don’t have an assault on our freedoms here in the US. Our current political climate is such that our freedoms are very much under attack. Our banks are being nationalized, our healthcare is on the brink of social medicine and if Obama has his way, our right to bear arms will come to a screeching halt. And, that’s just in his first 100 days! Don’t even get me started about the way the government is bankrupting my children’s futures! I consider that an attack on our freedoms. I love my country’s constitution and I’d like to see it upheld. That’s just me.
What does science have to do with a call for compulsory vaccinations? That’s what I’ve been wondering throughout this whole thread. It’s not about the vaccinations, it’s about freedom of choice and parents’ rights.
Just for clarification, I was a chemist in my ‘pre-mommy’ days. I have a chemistry degree, since you seem to think I have a ‘basic lack of science education’. Funny. My big dream back in my college days was to cure cancer. My big dream now is to raise my children to think for themselves and not accept information as fact just because some scientist said it or some politician said it or because I said it. Finding people who think for themselves and can reason together is a rare commodity.
Actually, I’d take your challenge to take those tests in a New York minute! Politics, government and current events are all passions/hobbies/interests of mine. I think I’d do pretty well. My 19 year old clepped American Government and I homeschooled her so I must have done SOMETHING right! ;-)’
Perhaps if the government stopped pushing it, and you let private companies compete to offer their version of the vaccines. They could probably do better advertising. Maybe too late to switch, but …
To: Lady Why
You, madam, have my utmost admiration and respect. You are to be commended for your “naïveté” regarding the increasing erosion of freedoms in western societies. I too, hope you’re wrong, but I harbour the same concerns.
You have earned my admiration with your clear critical thinking and cogent argument, not to mention your sense of parental responsibility and results as a home educator.
I strongly agree with all your points and position. Your arguments outshine all the other posters. The “science” concerning vaccinations is not settled. As long as agencies with commercial or political interests are providing the studies and reports, the truth will not emerge (bearing in mind that all truth is transitory, relative and subject to perspective, parameters and knowledge base. There is no absolute truth.). More people like yourself are needed to rise above the sheeple and challenge the herd mentality by speaking out.
Keep up the good work in raising your children to critically think, and search out truth to the best of their ability. Future society will be the better for it. I wish I had the privilege of knowing you personally.
Best wishes to you and your family.
…..Vern
It always amazes me the anger parents who vaccinate have against those who chose not to. The decision to not vaccinate for us (and many others) was made after literally months of constant research and agonizingly weighing the risks and benefits. My nephew became autistic after his 2 year shots 19 years ago. I knew nothing about autism or vaccines at the time. I started researching vaccines when I became a first time Mom. Some children are genetically at risk of having bad reactions, especially those with allergies(like ours). Many vaccines are made from chickens, eggs, and other animals. There are known carcinogens, lead, aluminum, mercury, and formaldehyde in them. Injecting these things into our childrens healthy bodies can be worse than exposure to most of the childhood diseases we are trying to prevent(diseases that have mostly been eradicated in the US through good hygiene and better nutrition). Yes, whooping cough can kill an infant, and is the one vaccine that might be worth the risk to get. After the age of two, it is not necessary. I was fortunate to be able to stay home with my children and keep them away from exposure as infants. My Mom was forced to vaccinate me when I entered first grade and I was very ill for 3 months after. She was very ill after a flu shot. Despite our bad reactions, this is not enough to get a medical waiver to exempt my children from being vaccinated. If the government took control of vaccinating my children, it is very likely they too would have bad reactions. I would be forced to watch in horror as they were given something that could destroy their health for years to come (read up on the neurological damage, among other physical side effects). Please, I urge everyone to do your own research on this very important issue. Read about the documented deaths and bad reactions. About the government fund for vaccine damaged children which has payed out millions. About how the only known cases of polio in the US since 1985 were FROM the vaccine itself. Read about strengthening your child’s immune system the natural way through nutrition and a healthy lifestyle. Many people accuse those who don’t vaccinate of trying to benefit from the herd immunity or others. I have read many times while researching vaccines that any immunity they may give does not last very long and that is why you must have booster shots. There are documented outbreaks of measles where most had been fully vaccinated. The vaccinated child whose immune system has been weakened by constantly giving it new viruses to fight (it is documented that immediately after receiving vaccines your T- cell count goes down) can actually be more susceptible to disease than an non-vaccinated child with a healthy uncompromised immune system. I do not believe your vaccinated child is protecting mine at all. I believe you are doing what you believe is best for your child. It is what I would have done if my nephew didn’t have autism. I never would have questioned my doctor. But the fact is he does have autism. And now I am aware of the possible dangers. My children are too precious to me to be a statistic under vaccine side-effects. You vaccinate your child because you believe it will protect them. I don’t vaccinate to protect mine. It should be every parent’s right to do what they believe is best for their child. Don’t ever let anyone take that away from us.