Take the Challenge:
Modern Patternicity in Ancient Wisdom
In this week’s SkepticBlog, I propose a challenge to my readers: find a passage from any ancient text, not just the Bible (although you can use that as well), that appears to match a scientific principle, law, fact, or discovery and then submit your entry as a comment at the end of this post.
Best would be to comb through any ancient myth or tale or story that predates the scientific concept. This will “prove” that the selected text is supernaturally inspired (how else would ancient authors know about the scientific discovery?). For example, in the biblical Book of Job, two passages read as follows:
9:7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.
9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
Some believers think that 9:8 means the expanding universe. If so, wouldn’t 9:7 represent a collapsing universe?
But, this challenge is not restricted to the Bible; using any literary source, find passages that seem to match scientific discoveries. Let me explain how this challenge came about…
In my latest column in Scientific American (December) I introduce a concept I call Patternicity, or the tendency to find meaningful patterns in meaningless noise. UFOlogists see a face on Mars. Religionists see the Virgin Mary on the side of a building. Paranormalists hear dead people speaking to them through a radio receiver. Conspiracy theorists think 9/11 was an inside job by the Bush administration. Of course, some patterns are real while others are not, and science is the best tool ever devised for discriminating between true and false patterns.
Last Saturday (November 15) I experienced another example of patternicity — in biblical interpretation. I was invited to speak at the Orange County chapter of Hugh Ross’s Reasons to Believe, run by a gentleman named Virgil Robertson. Reasons to Believe is an evangelical organization dedicated to providing believers with, well, reasons to believe, mostly from the pages of science. Ross is an astronomer so he is especially fond of astronomical and cosmological reasons to believe, but they cover all aspects of science when necessary.
To their credit, they invited me to give their members my best shot at providing “reasons not to believe,” which I did in outlining the evidence I present in my book, How We Believe, that God (and the corresponding religions in his name) were created by humans and not vice versa. But in addition to my lecture, Virgil sent me a long list of questions for “skeptics” to answer. I provide the entire set at the end of this document, but right at the top I noticed this one:
- How do skeptics account for the fact that the Bible (in writings over 2500 years old) teaches concepts consistent with Big Bang cosmology, which were undiscovered until the 20th century? Such as:
- The continual expansion of the universe and the stretching of the actual space-time fabric of the universe itself (Job 9:8, Isaiah 42:5, 48:13, 40:22, 45:12, 44:24, Jeremiah 51:15, 10:12, Zechariah 12:1)
Wait a minute, I thought. The book of Job is about the expansion of the universe and the fabric of space and time? I thought it was a book about human suffering and the problem of evil. What is this cosmological passage in Job 9:8, I wondered? Here it is:
Job 9:8: “Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.”
Uh? What’s the context for this? The answer is in the passages that come before:
9:1 Then Job answered and said,
9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
9:3 If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.
9:4 He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against him, and hath prospered?
9:5 Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.
9:6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.
9:7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.
9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
This listing is a poetic way of reinforcing to the reader God’s power: Able to move mountains, cause earthquakes, stop the sun, cover the stars, spread out the heavens, and walk on water. It’s a common motif in mythic literature, not unlike…
Faster than a speeding bullet. More powerful than a locomotive. Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. Look! Up in the sky. It’s a bird. It’s a plane. Yes, it’s Superman. Strange visitor from another planet who came to Earth with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men. Superman — who can change the course of mighty rivers, bend steel with his bare hands, and who, disguised as Clark Kent, mild mannered reporter for a great metropolitan newspaper, fights the never ending battle for Truth, Justice and the American Way.
(Do you suppose this theme of a messianic figure coming to earth, mingling among the common people, performing miracles, and righting injustices — repeated in the film The Day the Earth Stood Still by the way — was consciously modeled on the Christ story or that it is simply a common theme among many myths that gets repeated because it makes for a dramatic storyline?)
Now, about that verse 8 and the “spreadeth” of the heavens. The word in Hebrew is “natah.” According to Skeptic magazine Religion Editor Tim Callahan, who helped me to prepare for my religious interlocutors, while it can have a variety of applications, in the context of here it most probably means “spread out,” like a blanket or a tent. In fact, God “spreading” out the sky like a tent or blanket is a metaphor for the dome of the sky or canopy of the fixed stars. (As in Isaiah 40:22, where God stretched the heavens out “like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in.”) The reference is to the “canopy” of fixed stars that stretched over the flat fixed earth in this ancient cosmological model that the Israelites inherited from the Babylonians and Egyptians (see figure below).
What is really going on here with Reasons to Believe is a special form of patternicity of searching for (and finding) meaningful patterns in the Bible that appear to match current scientific thinking. If, for example, new data indicated that we lived in a closed universe and that the universe will eventually collapse, we could find support in Job 9:7: “Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.”
So which is it, an expanding universe or a collapsing universe? How can the Bible be used to settle the issue?
Since Tim Callahan was good enough to look up for me a few additional passages provided by Reasons to Believe, let’s review them:
The universe coming into existence at a distinct time in the finite past (Gen. 1:1, Isaiah 42:5, 45:18, Gen. 2:3–4, Heb. 11:3)
Callahan Answer: Taken altogether, all of these verses simply say that God created the world. So what? All religions have origin myths, even Gods who create the world ex nihilo. In a hymn to Ra, ca. 1350 BCE, The Papyrus Hunefer says (Sir Wallis Budge Egyptian Religion, p.49):
Thou art the one god who came into being at the beginning of time. Thou didst create the earth. Thou didst fashion man, thou didst make the watery abyss of the sky, thou didst form the Nile, thou didst create the great deep, and thou dost give life to all that therein is.
This is just one of many Egyptian papyri that greatly antedate the Bible in which a God creates everything out of nothing.
How do skeptics account for the fact that the Bible identifies four initial conditions of the primordial earth, which have all been confirmed by modern science? (Genesis 1:2) Namely that …
- The Earth was Formless (and unfit for life) — (Scientists now tell us that the primordial earth was indeed formless and unfit to support life during the Hadean Era from ~ 4.5 to 3.9 bya).
- The Earth was Void (or empty of life) — (Scientists find no evidence for life on earth prior to 3.9 bya)
- Darkness over the Surface of the Earth
- The Earth’s Surface was Covered with Water
Callahan Answer: Just about every creation story starts out with the world being dark, formless and void. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be creation stories, would they? The Babylonian creation story Enuma Elish, which antedates the Bible, starts out with the world covered with water. Does that make it scientific?
How do skeptics account for the scientific accuracy of the Day-Age interpretation of the Genesis 1 creation account, which documents 10 chronologically ordered creation events that have now been confirmed to be sequentially accurate by modern science?
Callahan Answer: The sequence of creation events in Genesis 1:
- creation of light,
- creation of a firmament (Heaven) between the waters,
- creation of oceans and dry land
- Creation of vegetation, on land and sea,
- creation of the sun, moon and stars,
- Creation of sea animals and birds
- creation of land animals,
- creation of human beings.
This does not match the findings of modern science.
How do skeptics account for the multiple examples of fulfilled prophecy found in the Bible?
Callahan Answer: The gospel writers searched the Hebrew Scriptures for prophecies and wrote the gospels to conform to them. We have no objective record of the details of the Crucifixion, and the Gospels, hardly objective, disagree with each other and were definitely not written by eyewitnesses. As to Daniel 9:24–26: It says (v. 26), “an anointed one will be cut off.” This was probably a high priest Antiochus Epiphanes put to death. Christian Bibles often say it the “Messiah” who is referred to. But “Messiah” (Heb. mashiach, Aramaic meshihah) simply means, “anointed.” The succession of empires in Daniel 2 is actually Babylon, Persia, Alexander’s empire and the successor states (the Seleucid empire, Ptolemaic Egypt and Macedonia under the Antigonids). Bear in mind, also that Daniel was written after the fact, ca. 164 BCE.
In other words, this is like being impressed that the Star Wars prequels predict the earlier-made sequels.
After my lecture, the good folks at Reasons to Believe took me out to lunch at a restaurant less than a mile from the big Brea fire that started while we were indoors. When I came out I must confess that for a brief moment I thought that maybe it was the end of days! The skies were darkened and ash rained down upon us, making me think of descending into Dante’s inferno…
A couple of days later, Reasons to Believe sent me a packet of reading materials in support of their claim that it is possible to scientifically test biblical claims. Here is my general response (since the specific responses above seemed not to satisfy):
Virgil,
As for your question, and the general approach you take, you are starting with a built-in assumption that absolutely must be true for you, and that is that the Bible is supernatural (or was supernaturally written or inspired or whatever). That is antithetical to science. There is no way to test that outside of the Bible itself, and thus you find yourself in a tautology: the Bible is supernaturally written, thus everything in it must be true, thus whatever it is that scientists discover must somehow fit with what we already know to be true.
That is, the facts of science cannot possibly — ever! — contradict scripture. This leads to the torturing of the facts to fit scripture, and vice versa. And thus you end up with these hopelessly twisted interpretations of what some word or phrase “really means” (by which you mean “how can I make this darn thing fit?”) and you thereby miss the larger meaning of the Bible stories.
As for the order in Genesis, it’s wrong:
- Creation of the universe and earth at the same time: wrong (universe is 13.7 by, earth is 4.6 by).
- Earth without form and yet there is water: wrong (water came much later after its formlessness became formed).
- Then light is created: wrong (light from stars came much earlier than the creation of the earth — by billions of years!).
- Creation of day and night (well, that would have happened as soon as the earth began to rotate, which was well before water, so…wrong!).
- Dividing the waters from the firmament (as I said, this is ancient Babylonian/Egyptian canopy cosmology that the Israelites adapted, which was wrong).
- Creation of land and grass and plants and fruit trees on day three before the seasons on day four (wronger than wrong).
- Creation of the moon on the 4th day (wrong, that came way before grass and plants and fruit trees).
In any case, Bible scholars of all stripes (the vast majority of which are as deeply religious as you are and believe all the same central tenets of Christianity that you believe) agree that the Bible is an edited volume written by many authors over a long span of time. This helps explain why, for example, in one passage Noah is instructed to take two of every kind of animal on the Ark, and in another passage he is instructed to take 7 of each kind, two of the unclean (or was it clean?) types. One version has the flood lasting 40 days and 40 nights, another passage says 150 days. In one passage Noah sends out a raven to find land. In another passage he sends a dove. And on and on. You and Hugh and company obviously have encountered these facts about the bible, facts uncovered not by skeptics/atheists but by born-again bible-believing Christians.
By adopting the stance that you do you are forced to dismiss all of this scholarship and, in my opinion, miss the real meaning of the Bible. The Bible is about how people should get along with one another and about morality and ethics and meaning. By trying to make it fit the current estimates of the Hubble constant (to pick just one among many examples), me thinks you are missing the point of the book, and thus (in your world view) you are missing the point God is making.
To quote Oliver Cromwell, speaking before the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland in 1650, “I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken.”
Questions for Michael Shermer’s Talk (November 15th, 2008)
Positive Evidence Section
- How do skeptics account for the fact that the Bible (in writings over 2500 years old) teaches concepts consistent with Big Bang cosmology, which were undiscovered until the 20th century? Such as:
- The universe coming into existence at a distinct time in the finite past (Gen. 1:1, Isaiah 42:5, 45:18, Gen. 2:3-4, Heb. 11:3)
- The continual expansion of the universe and the stretching of the actual space-time fabric of the universe itself (Job 9:8, Isaiah 42:5, 48:13, 40:22, 45:12, 44:24, Jeremiah 51:15, 10:12, Zechariah 12:1)
-
How do skeptics account for the fact that the Bible identifies four initial conditions of the primordial earth, which have all been confirmed by modern science? Namely that …
- The Earth was Formless (and unfit for life) — (Scientists now tell us that the primordial earth was indeed formless and unfit to support life during the Hadean Era from ~ 4.5 to 3.9 bya).
- The Earth was Void (or empty of life) — (Scientists find no evidence for life on the primordial earth prior to 3.9 bya)
- Darkness over the Surface of the Earth — (Scientists now know that a heavy atmosphere impenetrable to light initially blanketed the primordial Earth prior to the moon-forming collision ~ 4.496 bya)
- The Earth’s Surface was Covered with Water — (Scientists now know that the primordial earth was indeed covered with water from ~ 3.9 to 3.1 bya) (Genesis 1:2)
- How do skeptics account for the scientific accuracy of the Day-Age interpretation of the Genesis 1 creation account, which documents 10 chronologically ordered creation events that have now been confirmed to be sequentially accurate by modern science?
Supernatural Scientific Accuracy of Genesis 1 … 10 Creation Events
- The first creation event recorded in Genesis 1 is…
- The Creation of the entire Physical Universe (including all matter, energy and spatio-temporal dimensions) … Scientists tell us this Big Bang cosmic creation event occurred ~ 13.7 bya (Gen. 1:1, In the beginning)
- Creation Event #2
- The appearance of light – Transformation of Earth’s Early Atmosphere from Opaque to Translucent … Scientists tell us this event occurred via the moon forming collision experienced by earth ~ 4.496 bya. (Gen. 1:3–4, Day 1)
- Creation Event #3
- The Formation of a Stable Water Cycle … Geologists tell us that a stable planetary water cycle was established between ~ 3.9 and 3.1 bya. (Gen. 1:6–7, Day 2)
- Creation Event #4
- The Formation of Continental Land Masses … Scientists now estimate that the first continental land masses emerged above sea level ~ 3.0 bya. (Gen. 1:9–10, Day 3)
- Creation Event #5
- The Production of Land Plants … Paleobiologists now believe that land plants first appeared on earth between ~ 750 (molecular clock) and 450 (fossils) mya. (Gen. 1:11–12, Day 3)
- Creation Event #6
- The appearance of the sun, moon and stars – The Transformation of the Earth’s Atmosphere from Perpetually Translucent to Occasionally Transparent … Scientists tell us the sun, moon, stars and planets first “appeared” as visibly distinct objects in the sky … between ~ 600 and 540 mya. (Gen. 1:14–17, Day 4)
- Creation Event #7
- The Production of Swarms of Small Sea Animals … The first evidence for large populations of small sea animals and fish appear in the fossil record between ~ 550 and 400 mya. (Gen. 1:20, Day 5)
- Creation Event #8
- The Production of Birds and Sea Mammals … Paleontologists have discovered the first evidence for birds in the fossil record appears ~ 160 mya. And the first evidence for sea mammals appears ~ 55 mya. (Gen. 1:20–21, Day 5)
- Creation Event #9
- The Production of Three Specialized Types of Land Mammals … Mammals designed to cohabitate with humans … Scientists tell us that dogs, cats, rodents, and domesticatable livestock species first appear in the fossil record at varying times throughout the last 50 million years. (Gen. 1:24–25, Day 6)
- Creation Event #10
- The Production of the Human species … Paleoanthropologists now know that anatomically modern Homo sapiens first appear in the fossil record between ~ 150 and 40 kya. (Gen. 1:26–27, Day 6)
It’s important to note that the book of Genesis was written in ~1,400 B.C.E. — long before the advent of modern science. The scientific accuracy of the Genesis 1 creation account provides strong evidence for its supernatural origin. If the Bible did not have a supernatural origin, how do we account for its uncanny precision, in light of a growing collection of modern scientific confirmations?
- How do skeptics account for the multiple examples of fulfilled prophecy found in the Bible?
- Messianic Prophecies:
-
- The specifics of Jesus’ Ancestral Lineage … Gen 22:12, 12:2-3, 21:12, 35:10-12, 49:10, Micah 5:12, Numbers 24:12, Isaiah 11:1, 1:10, Jeremiah 23:5
- The Place of His Birth … Micah 5:2
- The fact that His Hands and Feet were Pierced … Psalm 22:16, Zech 12:10
- The fact that He had no Broken Bones in His Body at the time of death (an unusual occurrence for Roman crucifixions) … Psalm 34:20
- The fact that His Garments were Divided and Lots were Cast for Them … Psalm 22:18
- And the fact that He was buried in the Tomb of a Rich Man … Isaiah 53:9
- Daniel’s Prophecies:
-
- The date of Christ’s entrance into Jerusalem and subsequent execution … Daniel 9:24–26
- The succession of World Empires: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece & Rome … Daniel 2:37–42
- Prophecies About the Nation of Israel:
-
- The establishment of Israel as a nation and their return to the land (in 1948) … The 2nd regathering — Isaiah 11:11, Jeremiah 29:14, Ezekiel 36:24, 28, 36.
I was at the Origins conference a few months ago. One of the most beautiful moments was when Ken Miller, right there on stage, looked up the Job 9:8 passage that Hugh Ross had used as biblical evidence for an expanding universe and called him out on it. Instant sourcing! Immediate validation! The days of creationists blatantly lying and quote mining in public debates is coming to an end.
Creation of land and grass and plants and fruit trees on day three before the seasons on day four (wronger than wrong)
Well put friend. Well put indeed.
The interpretation under “Questions for Michael Shermer’s Talk” #3 sounds a lot like Dr. Gerald Schroeder. The whole idea that the sun and moon “appeared” after plants because the atmosphere became transparent, it’s pretty clever. Intelligent people are good at finding patterns in randomness, but they don’t look so smart when they lose money in the stock market.
If you like the Bible apologists, you’ll love the Koran apologists. They say the Koran contains the theory of evolution, the speed of light, and a whole lot more.
#4 of Shermer’s questions is pretty hilarious. In the Hebrew versions of the bible (cough the ones that 1st century Jews probably were reading cough) most of those prophecies were quite a bit different and failed to match up. This is particularly critical regarding a 1st century Palestinian Jew of some note. Of course, the translation errors are just insult to injury, considering the prophecies that were indeed “correct” by all translations were decided on and written (or to be generous, enacted by historical characters) after they were already well known.
As for a fun bit of science in an old book, from the early to mid 600s CE, the Qur’an mentions in 53:46ish that God gave our ejaculate the ability to determine the sex. I don’t believe that was a known thing. Wasn’t there some King much later in history who kept killing wives because he kept shooting Xs?.
I’m not clear on whether your challenge is looking for ancient texts that successfully predict later discovered scientific principals, or texts that attempted and failed. If it’s the later, then the easy one I’ve got is ‘I Kings 7:23′, declaring that pi is precisely 3.
But on your SciAm column and “Patternicity”. I’m confused about the difference between “patternicity” and “pareidolia”. Could you please clarify? And if there isn’t a difference, would you explain the justification for making up new words to replace perfectly good existing words?
@Jon: I believe his goal was to show that concepts in literature that pre-date scientific knowledge yet can be read as strikingly accurate of recently-proven science exist throughout history, and are not limited merely to what some believe is supernatural or divine knowledge of the universe. In other words, text that is either unspecific enough as to be easily interpreted as you see fit (much like prophecies), or concepts that are more easily predictable than the Bible-followers would like to believe. So yes, he’d be looking for examples of concepts that science proved to be accurate.
As for the term “patternicity,” his description seems to suggest that it reaches beyond mere pareidolia. My understanding of pareidolia is that it’s the act of seeing images of familiar objects in random patterns. His definition of patternicity expands upon this to sounds and even concepts. Luck, the zone, fate and God’s plan seem like possibly further-reaching versions of this (although maybe a little too far outside the scope). But his examples of radio noise and conspiracy theories do a good enough job on their own of explaining it. The term seems like a clean way of tying all of these related concepts together instead of expanding one word past its original meaning.
@Turbofool
Thanks.
My understanding of pareidolia suggests that sound (such as backwards records, etc) would be included, but I think you might be right regarding concepts like luck and fate. I hadn’t considered that. Thanks.
Pareidolia covers images and sounds, but the general term is “apophenia”, coined by neuropsychologist Klaus Conrad in 1958.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia
Do self-fulfilling prophecies count? They’re not random; the pattern really is there.
Here’s a neat prophecy.
http://www.mendhak.com/39-baba-vanga-the-bulgarian-prophetess.aspx
When Baba Vanga predicted that “Kursk will be underwater and the whole world will mourn it”, people wondered how the city of Kursk could get so flooded. Then, in August 2000, the Kursk submarine sank in a tragic incident.
I like the Old Babylonian myth (ca1800-1600bce) known as the Worm and the Tooth. It begins: “After Anu had created heaven,
Heaven had created the earth,
The earth had created the canals,
The canals had created the marsh,
And the marsh had created the worm– “
Every thing capable of being infinitely divided contains an infinite number of parts; otherwise the division would be stopt short by the indivisible parts, which we should immediately arrive at. If therefore any finite extension be infinitely divisible, it can be no contradiction to suppose, that a finite extension contains an infinite number of parts: And vice versa, if it be a contradiction to suppose, that a finite extension contains an infinite number of parts, no finite extension can be infinitely divisible. But that this latter supposition is absurd, I easily convince myself by the consideration of my clear ideas. I first take the least idea I can form of a part of extension, and being certain that there is nothing more minute than this idea, I conclude, that whatever I discover by its means must be a real quality of extension. I then repeat this idea once, twice, thrice, &c., and find the compound idea of extension, arising from its repetition, always to augment, and become double, triple, quadruple, &c., till at last it swells up to a considerable bulk, greater or smaller, in proportion as I repeat more or less the same idea. When I stop in the addition of parts, the idea of extension ceases to augment; and were I to carry on the addition in
infinitum, I clearly perceive, that the idea of extension must also become infinite. Upon the whole, I conclude, that the idea of all infinite number of parts is individually the same idea with that of an
infinite extension; that no finite extension is capable of containing an infinite number of parts; and consequently that no finite extension is infinitely divisible
David Hume, Treatise of Human Nature (circa 1740). I think he was right, time and space are not indivisible (Planck length and time). Is that ancient enough? ;)
I remember something from the old Viking myths on Ragnarok…
Taken from wiki, “the Poetic Edda contains various references to Ragnarök:
It sates itself on the life-blood
of fated men,
paints red the powers’ homes
with crimson gore.
Black become the sun’s beams
in the summers that follow,
weathers all treacherous. ”
This is ‘clearly’ talking about the reddening of the sun when it becomes a red giant and later death as a white dwarf, cooling to a black dwarf.
If this isn’t taking about the icy death of the solar system, I don’t know what is
Lee
The poet John Donne should be promoted to prophet.
How did he know about love in our DNA?
Our eye-beams twisted, and did thread
Our eyes upon one double string;
So to’intergraft our hands, as yet
Was all the means to make us one,
And pictures in our eyes to get
Was all our propagation.
Ezekiel 27:33
“Then your merchandise went out on the seas,
you satisfied many nations;
with your great wealth and your wares
you enriched the kings of the earth. ”
Anyone recall the hype when Apple shipped iPhone outside the US? =)
Since it is obviously ok to take quotes out of context and interpret then as you agenda dictates, as mr. Shermer pointed out in his first example, I’d like to do the same. This one is from Lamentations 2:14, and it predicts (because I say so) that we all will realize that the Bible and its teachings are fake:
“The visions of your prophets
were false and worthless;
they did not expose your sin
to ward off your captivity.
The oracles they gave you
were false and misleading. ”
And also:
Jeremiah 4:6
“Raise the signal to go to Zion!
Flee for safety without delay!
For I am bringing disaster from the north,
even terrible destruction.”
– Isn’t that solid evidence that the Bible predicted the Matrix?
Ooh, Ooh, I have one! The Poetic Edda, Volume one, Voluspo predicts that we are not stationary in space, and that the apparent positions of the stars will change over time. Verse five:
5. The sun, the sister | of the moon, from the south
Her right hand cast | over heaven’s rim;
No knowledge she had | where her home should be,
The moon knew not | what might was his,
The stars knew not | where their stations were.
This is one of the most challenging and clever challenges I have ever witnessed. It seems that a lot of ancient text are covered. I will not add another one. I will only add to the fact that is has been proven that technology might be new but science wisdom and building tools are not. I definetly have to recomend this to some people I know.
From Isa-Upanishad XVI:
O Pushan! O Sun, sole traveller of the heavens, controller of
all, son of Prajapati, withdraw Thy rays and gather up Thy
burning effulgence.
Wowzers! Clear and irrefutable proof that ancient Indo-Aryans understood stellar dynamics! This is obviously a description of the eventual demise of the Sun due to the depletion of its nuclear fuel. Notice that our particular star is identified: “sole”, “Sol”. Creepy, huh?
Dear Sir
I am not referring to a particular quotation but to the concepts of time in the Hindu sacred books which is to my knowledge the only concept that in any way approaches in its scope (approximately 12 billion years by some interpretation) the range of estimates for the age of the universe.
It has always struck me that while the period of time referred to is almost certainly completely coincidental it nether the less must be the first conceptualisation of the magnitude of time involved in the existence of the universe.
Peter Duncan
I remember an exchange between two individuals on a website regarding the claim that the earth is only 6000 years old. One in-duh-vidual was arguing that II Peter 3:8 supported the scientific theory of time dilation, which could reconcile biblical claims of the age of the earth with reality.
II Peter 3:8 – “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”
The in-duh-viduals argument to support this? “Science has proven that time dilation exists. This means that a thousand years in one place could be a day somewhere else. It is curious how this concept appears in a nearly 2,000 year old text when we all agree that the scientific basis for the comment hadn’t been discovered then, isn’t it?”
Someone tried to reason with this person, but he was unreasonable and stubborn in his beliefs….
THE ASSYRIAN EPIC OF THE CREATION
– First Tablet (obverse) by line:
4. Mummu-Tiamat (the chaos of the sea) was the mother of them all.
(Life originated in the water)
6. the corn-field 3 was unharvested, the pasture was un-grown.
(Simple, organic plant life preceded man)
7. At that time the gods had not appeared, any of them;
(Nature and all that is came first; the God concept second)
-jjg
DailyScoff.com
On the other hand, look at the Hebrew prohibitions on eating pork and other ‘unclean’ animals. Saved them quite a bit of trouble from trichinosis and salmonella, I imagine.
I used to briefly lurk on a discussion forum called “Science In Hinduism”. I can’t find the link anymore, but the threads were full of such examples. There was one that had a long explanation of how the Vedas (thousands of years old) predicted the precise speed of light. It was full of arbitrary translations and conversions of ancient units of measurement to make the text fit the current findings.
As a former christian, I understand WHY people believe in what they do, but at the same time that skeptic that is exists in every person is trying to find a way out and if presented with the right data at the right time, maybe that skeptic will come through. It did for me.
I would point christians to a book entitled, “The Christ Conspiracy.” It offers the best argument for the non-existence of a physical Jesus. It shows the correlation of Jesus to the gods of the Egyptians.
First I’ll give the list of passages promoting the concept, followed by the scientific concept they supposedly support.
Leviticus 26:39, “Those of you who are left will waste away in the lands of their enemies because of their sins; also because of their fathers’ sins they will waste away.”
Exodus 20:5, “You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me”
These verses and others are the basis of the Judeo-Christian principle of Generational Sin. Could this be Biblical evidence for epigenetics? For example, if a man has an addictive personality and is addicted to drugs, alcohol, gambling, or any number of things, then any children he has will have a genetic predilection for addiction.
One of the ‘ancient science’ theories involved the four ‘elements’, yet it can be considered as ‘modern science’
Elements:
Earth
Air
Fire
Water
can be considered as the four states of matter:
Solid
Gaseous
Plasma
Liquid.
J/P=?
Posting straight from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom
The earliest references to the concept of atoms date back to ancient India in the 6th century BCE. The Nyaya and Vaisheshika schools developed elaborate theories of how atoms combined into more complex objects (first in pairs, then trios of pairs). The references to atoms in the West emerged a century later from Leucippus whose student, Democritus, systemized his views. In approximately 450 BCE, Democritus coined the term átomos, which means “uncuttable” or “the smallest indivisible particle of matter”, i.e., something that cannot be divided. Although the Indian and Greek concepts of the atom were based purely on philosophy, modern science has retained the name coined by Democritus.
Further progress in the understanding of atoms did not occur until the science of chemistry began to develop. In 1661, natural philosopher Robert Boyle published The Sceptical Chymist in which he argued that matter was composed of various combinations of different “corpuscules” or atoms, rather than the classical elements of air, earth, fire and water.
As commentator #4 says, many muslims believe that Quran contains many “scientific revelations”. On the other hand, there is also a good number of famous scholars who deny this and refuse “force unto the passages science that can later be overturned due to new discoveries”.
Anyways, there are many websites that talk about this. Here are few:
http://www.islam-guide.com
http://www.scienceinquran.com
http://www.harunyahya.com/
these are written by PhDs and contain figures and drawings, it’ll take forever to go through them all. I’ll choose 2 verses that are most cited by muslims usually, and I’d love to hear your opinion about them
(I’ll post them in separate comments)
The four humours and temperaments have influenced modern psychology.
The Wikipedia article has a table of the ancient and modern names.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism
Sanguine – Artisan
Choleric – Idealist
Melancholic – Guardian
Phlegmatic – Rational
Science tells us that the Sahara was not always a desert, but was once fertile. Ovid’s Metamorphoses tells us that North Africa was originally fertile until Phaeton drove the sun-chariot too close to the Earth, burning all the vegetation and turning the region into a desert.
1- The Quran on Human Embryonic Development
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-a.htm
http://www.scienceinquran.com/book/chapter%204.pdf
http://www.islamicmedicine.org/embryoengtext.htm
The verse:
{We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)…} (Quran 23:12-14)
{Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)? Then did he become a leech-like clot; then did (Allah) make and fashion (him) in due proportion. And of him He made two sexes, male and female.}(Quran 75: 37-39)
The Explanation:
The stages mentioned in quran mirror those discovered in modern science:
1- extract of clay
2- a drop
3- alaqah
4- mudghah
5- (implied – full fetus ready for delivery)
Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore at U of Toronto, author of the Developing Human best selling book, comments on these verses and testifies that they provides scientifically correct classification of embryo development: (a real audio recording of his speech is available)
“….Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah (what Muhammad said, did, or approved of). The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge. The intensive studies of the Quran and hadeeth (reliably transmitted reports by the Prophet Muhammad’s companions of what he said, did, or approved of) in the last four years have revealed a system for classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D. Although Aristotle, the founder of the science of embryology, realized that chick embryos developed in stages from his studies of hen’s eggs in the fourth century B.C., he did not give any details about these stages. As far as it is known from the history of embryology, little was known about the staging and classification of human embryos until the twentieth century. For this reason, the descriptions of the human embryo in the Quran cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century. The only reasonable conclusion is: these descriptions were revealed to Muhammad from God. He could not have known such details because he was an illiterate man with absolutely no scientific training.”
Great concept Michael!
OK, how about the predictions on this piece of rock:
petroglyphs
Top middle: heliocentric solar system
Upper right: spiral galaxies
Middle left: human cloning
Middle right: domestication of the banana
Lower right: atomic bomb
2- on seas & rivers:
http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm
The Verses:
{He has set free the two seas meeting together. There is a barrier between them. They do not transgress.} (Quran, 55:19-20)
This verse of two seas that meet but do not mix was not understood for a long time. And then in modern times when muslims learned about ocean currents they saw this as a clear interpretation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_current
I hope you enjoy these 2 points
I can see why clever religious scholars would refuse to commit to a scientific theory. They realize that if the theory is later overturned, they’d have to completely reinterpret their dogma or be at odds with modern science the way young earth creationists are.
“For this reason, the descriptions of the human embryo in the Quran cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century. The only* reasonable conclusion is: these descriptions were revealed to Muhammad from God. He could not have known such details because he was an illiterate man with absolutely no scientific training**.”
*False dichotomy
**Argument from personal incredulity.
For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night. (PS 90:4)
If that’s not relativity I don’t know what is!
Actually it’s the reverse since it describes time contraction not time dilation. However the believer can say since falling into a black hole will (I believe according to modern calculations) cause you to see the entire future of the universe if you look out then it’s proof of general relativity. AND as a bonus it shows God to be the ultimate singularity :)
Here is my challenge to those who believe that the Bible predicts scientific truths. Make the prediction before the fact, not after the fact. Predict a new scientific theory based on Bible passages. If science confirms this new theory to be correct, that would be very impressive indeed! But it doesn’t prove the Bible is God’s words because ancient philosophers and science fiction writers can do that too as in the case of atoms and space flights.
My challenge to the believers has two points. First, the Bible has not yet made any scientific prediction much less a correct scientific prediction. Prediction is always before the fact. It’s not a prediction if you already know it’s true. It’s claiming ‘I knew it!’ after scientists proved it to be true. Second, making correct scientific predictions doesn’t prove the Bible is God’s words because we know throughout the history of science that man’s words is enough to make correct scientific predictions.
Here’s Ovid’s Metamorphoses, Book 1
“A lifeless lump, unfashion’d, and unfram’d,
Of jarring seeds; and justly Chaos nam’d.
No sun was lighted up, the world to view;
No moon did yet her blunted horns renew:
Nor yet was Earth suspended in the sky,
Nor pois’d, did on her own foundations lye:
Nor seas about the shores their arms had thrown;
But earth, and air, and water, were in one.
Thus air was void of light, and earth unstable,
And water’s dark abyss unnavigable.
No certain form on any was imprest;
All were confus’d, and each disturb’d the rest.
For hot and cold were in one body fixt;
And soft with hard, and light with heavy mixt.”
1. “But earth, and air, and water, were in one.” suggests the collapse of physical laws as one proceeds back toward the moment of the big bang.
2. “Hot and cold were in one body fixed” suggests that cold and heat depend upon each other, and thus Cold is the absence of Hot.
Here is the Kena Upanishad
‘That which does not think by mind, and by which, they say, mind is thought 1, that alone know as Brahman, not that which people here adore.’That which does not see by the eye, and by which one sees (the work of) the eyes, that alone know as Brahman, not that which people here adore.’That which does not hear by the ear, and by which the ear is heard, that alone know as Brahman, not that which people here adore.’That which does not breathe by breath, and by which breath is drawn, that alone know as Brahman.
1. The concept of the neural reception of imagistic and auditory patterns in the brain is clearly understood in the ancient Sanskrit concept of Brahman.
2. The final verse seems to show a full understanding of the autonomic nervous system, which apparently “Brahman” is busy keeping it going.
Lets not forget the legendary Tomb Raider games where Lara Croft used a “wireless” headset enabling a handsfree connection to her cellphone that predated the invention of Bluetooth technology. Proof that Sony MUST have had supernatural/divine sources detailing this undiscovered technology or they would never have been able to create such an accurate depiction of the concept.
Deuteronomy 14:21 hints at the germ theory of disease. Sound advice, if a bit unethical.
“You shall not eat anything which dies of itself. You may give it to the alien who is in your town, so that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner, for you are a holy people to the LORD your God.”
Always look for an atheist butcher when buying meat on vacation.
In the Silmarillion by J.R.R. Tolkien the world is created by music. I think that it clearly predates string theory.
Pluto claimed that Heraclietus said that one can not step into the same river twice. Implying that change is constant.
Omar Kayyam in the Rubáiyát noted that: “The moving finger writes; and having writ, moves on: nor all thy piety nor wit shall lure it back to cancel half a line, nor all thy tears wash out a word of it.”
Implying that one can not go back and start over.
Modern day students of System analysis and chaos have finally scientifically verified these ancient claims that were likely made by simple observations.
Aristotle’s ethical doctrine can be summarized as the avoidance of extremes and the seeking of moderation in all things. Modern western medicine encourages moderation in all things since it has found that when practiced in daily living one tends toward optimal health. I hope this is the kind of thing you are looking for in your challenge.
I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. (Ecclesiastes 9:11)
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. (Ecclesiastes 12:12)
I noticed that there wasn’t any quotes from the “Tao Te Ching” so here goes:
Chapter 42
The Tao gives birth to One.
One gives birth to Two.
Two gives birth to Three.
Three gives birth to all things.
I think that this could represent the theory of evolution.
OR
Chapter 74
If you realize that all things change,
there is nothing you will try to hold on to.
If you aren’t afraid of dying,
there is nothing you can’t achieve.
The property of entropy
OR
Chapter 6
The Tao is called the Great Mother
empty yet inexhaustible,
it gives birth to infinite worlds
the sum over histories concept of quantum mechanics
This was taken from the english interpretation (not translation)of the Tao Te Ching by Stephen Mitchell.
Do I get brownie points for citing the author???
“On thy belly shalt thy go” God’s curse on the serpent in Eden. Evidence of evolution, that snakes are lizards that have “lost” their legs?
Seriously, we always have to allow for human imagination in the construction of myths. For example: our ancestors found dinosaur fossils and concluded (rightly) that they were the remains of creatures that no longer existed. When writing the entertaining stories based on these conclusions they give the creatures impossible powers. What is the least likely ability an animal can have? Breathing fire. Thus – dragons. Every now and again one of the myths turns out to resemble a scientific theory, like a stopped clock is right twice a day. Imagination plus coincidence doesn’t prove prophecy. It can, however, increase our respect for our ancestors’ powers of imagination. In short: enjoy the myths for their own sake but don’t base your view of life on them.
Stay Bright!
John 8:32
“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
This phrase alone is the base of all science.
It makes of every person that adopts it “the instant skeptic”
Of course for every sect leader it becomes “our truth (through me)”
Hello,
Has anyone noticed how Michael is not answering to any of the proofs presented.
Thanks
Patternicity – you forgot the prolific version: traders seeing ‘trends’ in random market movements and noise.
To Ahmed…
1. You may want to read the article again starting from the top.
2. You may want to look up the word “proof”.
Interesting exercise overall. I have nothing to add, but a few really great responses above.
The Pythagoreans deduced by pure thought alone: that earth is spherical 2,000 years before Magellan’s circumnavigation; that the universe is pure geometry 2,400 years before Einstein’s theory of relativity (non-euclidean geometry of space-time); the famous Pythagorean Theorem (they probably copied that from the Egyptians). They must be divinely inspired!
They also deduced the evilness of the square root of 2, the sexual potency of number 3, and the divinity of number 4, which they worshipped. All hail number 4! Mystics never die!
To: Virgil Robertson
Talking about the prescience of the ancients, I’m more impressed with the incredible engineering of the Egyptians than the supposedly scientific foresight of the bible writers. The Great Pyramid is one of the largest and oldest man-made structures ever. You can fit 3 Statues of Liberty on top of each other and still with room to spare inside the Pyramid. It weighs as much as 808 Eiffel Towers. Built 2,500 years before Christianity, the Pyramid was more ancient to Jesus than Jesus is ancient to us. It predates all major religions: Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism.
Following the supernatural origin argument, perhaps the Great Pyramid was made by the Egyptian god Osiris. Judging the Pyramid’s engineering marvel vs. the bible’s vague verses, Osiris would be more credible. The supernatural origin argument is a reason to believe in God. Or is it the other way around? Belief in God is a reason to argue supernatural origin.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d and the Word WAS G-d.”
In other words, what some call “God” was in reality an “information structure” — I’m sure you know that when Jews refer to “The Word” they are referrring to the single, long, 200,000 letter “string” called the Torah.
I’m sure you’re probably also aware that modern physics is rapidly converging on the idea that the universe is not made up of “matter” and energy, but instead is made up of information.
Re-read the creation account in Genesis 1, using the ‘definition of God’ from John 1:1, and you may notice that every act of creation was actually a ‘first arrangement’ of information. for example, light came about at the very instant that the primordial information “string” (call it the ‘DNA’ of light) was organized.
(as an interesting aside, ancient Hebrew traditions reportedly hold that it was only later that humans devised a written language around the original ‘torah string’ and the pronunciation rules that allowed humans to ‘read’ the string as “Let there be light.”
The late John Archibald Wheeler and many other prominent physicists have for many years now believed in Wheeler’s “IT from BIT” proposition, in which matter and the entire physical universe — even the three dimensions we observe are mere incidentals, and the universe is in reality an information structure, a “word”.
So…there’s my nomination — the first chapter of the book of John defines “God” as an information structure as opposed to a “person”, and John 1 can be summarized as the scientific principle “IT from BIT”.
I’m a physician and in my daily work I sometimes encounter incarcerated criminals and parolled addicts and the like. Its amazing how the stream of bull regarding feigned innocence, substance abuse despite conflicting blood tests, and alleged framing resembles the creativity and evasive logic of the religious faithful when “interpreting” their various ancient texts. Certainly, the frustration I feel when dealing with either group is identical.
Regarding the Pythagoreans: They also suppressed general knowledge of the dodecahedron, among the five so-called perfect solids…the other four representing the traditional four elements Earth, Air, Fire and Water. The dodecahedron, a twelve-sided figure whose faces are pentagons, and their suppression of it show clear pre-knowledge of the Bruce Willis movie “The Fifth Element” and the fact that it was not something that should be revealed to the general public.
Great attempt by michael shermer, and what a challenge. very anxious
to have his replay to the comments. Siby- Kerala,India
Only a few Verses from the Koran.
… And We made all living things from water. Why don’t they believe (in evolution)? [Chapter 21 : Verse 30]
And Allah has created every animal from water. Of them are (some) that slither, (some) walk upon two feet, and (some) go upon four (legs). Allah creates whatever He pleases. Surely, He has control on everything. [24:45]
And He is (the One) Who produced you from a single cell, that you stay at a stage (for some time) and then move to the next. No doubt, We have clearly explained Our Laws for scholars. [6:98]
God created the universe and the earth in six days. A day could be a time period of any length:
The angels (the blind forces of nature) and the Soul (Archangels) evolve toward Him in a day equal to fifty-thousand years. [70:4]
Tasdeeq, You said:
“And He is (the One) Who produced you from a single cell, that you stay at a stage (for some time) and then move to the next. No doubt, We have clearly explained Our Laws for scholars. [6:98]”
When I look up that passage, I see :(From:http://miraculousquran.blogspot.com/2009/08/surah-al-anaam-698-resting-place-and.html)
And He it is Who has brought you into being from a single soul, then there is (for you) a resting-place and a depository; indeed We have made plain the communications for a people who understand. [6-98]
Why do you use the word “cell” when it appears the original said “soul”?
I suspect there are more examples (“Nuclear” appears in the Koran? Or is that a more modern attempt at fitting current knowledge to an ancient text?).
Anyway, I think you have provided some excellent examples of what Dr. Shermer is talking about. Thanks.
Some more Verses from the Koran:
The Big Bang:
Don’t the atheists see that the cosmos and the earth were together as one; then, We split them apart into pieces? … [21:30]
Expanding universe:
We have built the cosmos with power and We are expanding it. [51:47]
Balanced universe:
And He made the cosmos evolve, and then balanced (it). [55:7]
Earth is not stationary:
… And He has made its night dark, and has brought forth the morn thereof; and He hurled the earth after that. … [79:29-30]
Modern wars:
Have you not seen what your Lord did to the people of the elephant (tank)? Did He not cause their plan to fail? And He sent upon them swarms of birds (airplanes) striking them with stamped stones (bombs) and (thus) made them like eaten-up straw? [105:1-5]
Nuclear War:
And We will let some of them to surge against others on that day, and the siren will be blown. Then We will gather them all together. [18:99]
And on that day, We will present (nuclear) Hell face to face to atheists. [18:100]
(How did Muhammad know that man will conquer outer space?)
And the day when the siren will be blown, whoever is in the sky and whoever is on the earth will be terrified except him whom God will … [27:87]
And those who refuse to believe and denounce Our Verses will be the inmates of (nuclear) Hell. [5:10]
Verily, it (nuclear Hell) is one of the greatest disasters. A warning to people … [74:35-36]
(Hell is) God’s kindled fire which rises beyond imagination. It will be closed in on them in (the form of) extended columns. [104:6-9]
(They will be) in the midst of hot poisonous (toxic) gases and scalding water, and under the shadow of black smoke, neither cool nor soothing (because these capitalists) lived in luxury and persisted in major crimes in the past. [56:42-46]
… Garments of fire will be cut out for those who refuse to believe; (and) boiling water will be poured down on their heads (whereby) their skins and inside of their bellies will be melted, and there will be maces of iron (missiles with warheads) for them. [22:19-21]
People suffering devastating nuclear-related injuries, including loss or deforming of skin, will be able to receive new skin without using grafting techniques as we know them today. Skin grafting and cosmetic surgery will become much improved in future because of human exposure not to a single act of nuclear devastation but to a series of nuclear conflicts. We may see that while we have made tremendous advances in growing artificial human tissue, tomorrow a way will be found to grow or to regenerate new skin on the human body.
Surely, We will soon make them enter fire (war) those who refuse to believe Our instructions. As often as their skins are burnt, We will replace their skins with other (new ones), that they may taste the punishment (again and again.) … [4:56]
Aftereffect of Nuclear War:
And surely, We will make all of the earth barren. [18:8]
Surely, the tree of cactus will be the (only) food for the criminals. It will boil in (their) stomach like molten copper … [44:43-46]
Scientists tell us a nuclear war will bring in dust and smoke that will cover the sky for a long period which in turn will cause extremely cold weather on earth.
(Nuclear) hell S where they will burn S what a hopeless living place! That’s it; so let them taste a boiling fluid and (then) an intensely cold and stinking drink. [38:56-57]
Surely, (nuclear) hell lies in ambush, a home for the dictators, who will stay there for ages with nothing cool to taste or drink, except boiling water and (then) a paralyzing cold: reward proportioned (to their crimes). [78:21-26]
God does not punish. People reap what they sow:
On the Day when suffering will overwhelm them from above them and from beneath their feet, and it will be said: “Taste the result of your actions.” [29:55]
Tasdeeq Islam.
I have nothing to offer to your challenge — because I have never considered the Bible, or any other ancient texts for that matter, to be a scientific treatise. However, I am somewhat intriqued by this entire exercise because of the fallacies from both sides.
Respectfully, those who try to support their religious beliefs based on science are misled. Of course, those who ridicule religion because of scientific inaccuracies are also misled. Try this equation on for size. Science does not equal religion, and religion does not equal science.
9:7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.
9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
Its just a point of View.
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