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	<title>Comments on: The Ponzi Dilemma</title>
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	<link>http://skepticblog.org/2008/12/23/ponzi-dilemma/</link>
	<description>The official blog of the Skeptologists</description>
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		<title>By: tre</title>
		<link>http://skepticblog.org/2008/12/23/ponzi-dilemma/#comment-17448</link>
		<dc:creator>tre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 14:34:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=739#comment-17448</guid>
		<description>Divisification and due diligence.  I heard about a few STOCK BROKERS that invested and subsequently lost everything with Madoff.  STOCK BROKERS!!!  These people should&#039;ve been able to at least figure out how he was supposedly making money, and if they couldn&#039;t figure it out, they should&#039;ve said no.  But again, with affinity scams they even said their was an &#039;allure of exclusivity&#039; or how some people had to wait years before being let into the scam.  I really can&#039;t believe it didn&#039;t go bust back in 2001 when the tech bubble burst.  It&#039;s a saying as old as investing, Don&#039;t put all your eggs in one basket.  Limit each type of stock or business segment to no more than 10% of your overall portfolio</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Divisification and due diligence.  I heard about a few STOCK BROKERS that invested and subsequently lost everything with Madoff.  STOCK BROKERS!!!  These people should&#8217;ve been able to at least figure out how he was supposedly making money, and if they couldn&#8217;t figure it out, they should&#8217;ve said no.  But again, with affinity scams they even said their was an &#8216;allure of exclusivity&#8217; or how some people had to wait years before being let into the scam.  I really can&#8217;t believe it didn&#8217;t go bust back in 2001 when the tech bubble burst.  It&#8217;s a saying as old as investing, Don&#8217;t put all your eggs in one basket.  Limit each type of stock or business segment to no more than 10% of your overall portfolio</p>
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		<title>By: Tommy Tucci</title>
		<link>http://skepticblog.org/2008/12/23/ponzi-dilemma/#comment-8599</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommy Tucci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:36:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=739#comment-8599</guid>
		<description>The entire financial system inluding Madoff are operating a 
21st Century Reverse Pyramid Market Scam. Your articles are old and smelly at least 300 years old.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The entire financial system inluding Madoff are operating a<br />
21st Century Reverse Pyramid Market Scam. Your articles are old and smelly at least 300 years old.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian - Hervey Bay, Queensland, Australia</title>
		<link>http://skepticblog.org/2008/12/23/ponzi-dilemma/#comment-6170</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian - Hervey Bay, Queensland, Australia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 07:34:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=739#comment-6170</guid>
		<description>I believe that if I am too dumb to understand how a given profit is being achieved, I should not be investing in it.

Terms like hedge fund, are nouns; static things.  Profits are explained by verbs or actions along the lines of the MacCawber equation in David Copperfield by Charles Dickens; &quot;make sure your expenses do not exceed your income.&quot;  

Many schemes make absolutely no attempt to explain the actual source of the proposed profit, apart from the concept of a spontaneous increase in the price of the so-called asset.  The concept of capital gain can apply to a betting ticket should your horse win.  All other capital gain schemes are actually a variation on this model. In the casino, some patrons win and some lose.

As Galbraith noted, in a good boom, the concept of recurrent yield is completely forgotten; let alone any evaluation of the future reliability of that yield.

Another clue arises from understanding how the proposed process is adding value.  In a boom, apparent past performance tends to create Gurus whose opinions displace arithmetic value-adding as the basis for judging an investment.  Past profit does not prove an added value; it can indicate fraud or patronage from a powerful elite who are running the scheme. Without Mr Ponzi&#039;s fraudulent manipulation there would be no hint of a profit, because no real value-added profit is being achieved.

Currently in Australia, real estate netting less than 5% (without capital gain) and equally overpriced shares fit the above definition of unwise investments rather well. The Bear Market still has a way to go yet, except for the foolhardy who are seeing bargains by comparing today&#039;s prices with yesterday&#039;s.  Those who are using tomorrow&#039;s yields as the yardstick are likely to stay on the sidelines for a little longer. If you can&#039;t put your shares in a drawer and live off the dividends, be very careful.

Admittedly, mine is a rather boring,conservative strategy, which often means I have little to contribute to dinner party conversations about exciting opportunities to make money without working.  The latest scheme seems to involve watching the price of your shares move up and down on a computer screen and jumping ship when the trend line turns.  Good luck, when George Soros decides to have a bit of fun with his billions of liquid capital.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe that if I am too dumb to understand how a given profit is being achieved, I should not be investing in it.</p>
<p>Terms like hedge fund, are nouns; static things.  Profits are explained by verbs or actions along the lines of the MacCawber equation in David Copperfield by Charles Dickens; &#8220;make sure your expenses do not exceed your income.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Many schemes make absolutely no attempt to explain the actual source of the proposed profit, apart from the concept of a spontaneous increase in the price of the so-called asset.  The concept of capital gain can apply to a betting ticket should your horse win.  All other capital gain schemes are actually a variation on this model. In the casino, some patrons win and some lose.</p>
<p>As Galbraith noted, in a good boom, the concept of recurrent yield is completely forgotten; let alone any evaluation of the future reliability of that yield.</p>
<p>Another clue arises from understanding how the proposed process is adding value.  In a boom, apparent past performance tends to create Gurus whose opinions displace arithmetic value-adding as the basis for judging an investment.  Past profit does not prove an added value; it can indicate fraud or patronage from a powerful elite who are running the scheme. Without Mr Ponzi&#8217;s fraudulent manipulation there would be no hint of a profit, because no real value-added profit is being achieved.</p>
<p>Currently in Australia, real estate netting less than 5% (without capital gain) and equally overpriced shares fit the above definition of unwise investments rather well. The Bear Market still has a way to go yet, except for the foolhardy who are seeing bargains by comparing today&#8217;s prices with yesterday&#8217;s.  Those who are using tomorrow&#8217;s yields as the yardstick are likely to stay on the sidelines for a little longer. If you can&#8217;t put your shares in a drawer and live off the dividends, be very careful.</p>
<p>Admittedly, mine is a rather boring,conservative strategy, which often means I have little to contribute to dinner party conversations about exciting opportunities to make money without working.  The latest scheme seems to involve watching the price of your shares move up and down on a computer screen and jumping ship when the trend line turns.  Good luck, when George Soros decides to have a bit of fun with his billions of liquid capital.</p>
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		<title>By: tom williams</title>
		<link>http://skepticblog.org/2008/12/23/ponzi-dilemma/#comment-2389</link>
		<dc:creator>tom williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=739#comment-2389</guid>
		<description>How to protect oneself completely from victimization by the next Madoff?

My answer: not possible

Think about it. 

Human intercourse is based on trust. 

When we meet someone first time we give them benefit of the doubt for being who they say they are. We do not ask them to whip out their drivers license to show us a picture id confirming that the person who is in front of us is who they say they are. And even if we did that, we could still be fooled, if someone impersonated themselves by forging the picture on the drivers license. 

This example is just to give an idea of the scope of the problem if trying to completely prevent future deceptions by the Madoffs of the world. 

Our entire society is based on an assumption that the person, or institutions we are dealing with are, in fact, who they represent themselves to be. 

Absent operating on such assumptions, nothing could happen in a society as we would be spending all our time confirming what someone said, or did; instead of moving on and acting on such representations. 

Think about how many interactions you have daily which are based on assumptions that you don&#039;t have to do a separate individual &#039;reality check&#039; everytime you interact with someone. 

Based on the way our world is organized, we - the 99.99999999% of us who abide by the rules and assumptions of our society - go about our business daily operating on the assumption that the other 99.999999% of the population is like us, also rule oberving. 

The problem is that if a person like Madoff or an organization like Enron chooses to &#039;game the system&#039; by not playing according to the rules we will miss it - if done carefully; as Madoff and Enron were able to get away with their illegal behavior for so long. 

So, while President Reagan may have proceeded on the maxim: &#039;Trust but verify&#039; - its easier to say than do, when dealing with everyday things. 

If we didnt trust each other - ie take each other at &#039;face value&#039; our commerce will slow to a crawl while we &#039;prove&#039; every statement made by every person we encounter in our daily life. 

If we do trust each other at &#039;face value&#039;, we open ourselves up to the inevitable possibility that someone we meet may not be the &#039;genuine article&#039; - ie like Madoff. 

Its a chance we have to take everyday. Its a cost of being alive. 

Tom Williams 

A victim of a Ponzi Meister 15 years ago, who stood in a long line of &#039;financially sophisticated&#039; creditors in Bankruptcy Court.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How to protect oneself completely from victimization by the next Madoff?</p>
<p>My answer: not possible</p>
<p>Think about it. </p>
<p>Human intercourse is based on trust. </p>
<p>When we meet someone first time we give them benefit of the doubt for being who they say they are. We do not ask them to whip out their drivers license to show us a picture id confirming that the person who is in front of us is who they say they are. And even if we did that, we could still be fooled, if someone impersonated themselves by forging the picture on the drivers license. </p>
<p>This example is just to give an idea of the scope of the problem if trying to completely prevent future deceptions by the Madoffs of the world. </p>
<p>Our entire society is based on an assumption that the person, or institutions we are dealing with are, in fact, who they represent themselves to be. </p>
<p>Absent operating on such assumptions, nothing could happen in a society as we would be spending all our time confirming what someone said, or did; instead of moving on and acting on such representations. </p>
<p>Think about how many interactions you have daily which are based on assumptions that you don&#8217;t have to do a separate individual &#8216;reality check&#8217; everytime you interact with someone. </p>
<p>Based on the way our world is organized, we &#8211; the 99.99999999% of us who abide by the rules and assumptions of our society &#8211; go about our business daily operating on the assumption that the other 99.999999% of the population is like us, also rule oberving. </p>
<p>The problem is that if a person like Madoff or an organization like Enron chooses to &#8216;game the system&#8217; by not playing according to the rules we will miss it &#8211; if done carefully; as Madoff and Enron were able to get away with their illegal behavior for so long. </p>
<p>So, while President Reagan may have proceeded on the maxim: &#8216;Trust but verify&#8217; &#8211; its easier to say than do, when dealing with everyday things. </p>
<p>If we didnt trust each other &#8211; ie take each other at &#8216;face value&#8217; our commerce will slow to a crawl while we &#8216;prove&#8217; every statement made by every person we encounter in our daily life. </p>
<p>If we do trust each other at &#8216;face value&#8217;, we open ourselves up to the inevitable possibility that someone we meet may not be the &#8216;genuine article&#8217; &#8211; ie like Madoff. </p>
<p>Its a chance we have to take everyday. Its a cost of being alive. </p>
<p>Tom Williams </p>
<p>A victim of a Ponzi Meister 15 years ago, who stood in a long line of &#8216;financially sophisticated&#8217; creditors in Bankruptcy Court.</p>
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		<title>By: J.F.Soti</title>
		<link>http://skepticblog.org/2008/12/23/ponzi-dilemma/#comment-2321</link>
		<dc:creator>J.F.Soti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 02:22:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=739#comment-2321</guid>
		<description>Social Security is the band aid government uses to compensate for the financial illiteracy of the population.  Anyone with half a brain can get better returns on the funds that are put into social security.  Schools should be required to teach financial literacy and spend less time on Shakespeare and gym, no offence to the teachers of those subjects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Social Security is the band aid government uses to compensate for the financial illiteracy of the population.  Anyone with half a brain can get better returns on the funds that are put into social security.  Schools should be required to teach financial literacy and spend less time on Shakespeare and gym, no offence to the teachers of those subjects.</p>
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		<title>By: John Powell</title>
		<link>http://skepticblog.org/2008/12/23/ponzi-dilemma/#comment-2238</link>
		<dc:creator>John Powell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 18:18:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=739#comment-2238</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s nothing wrong with Social Security that can&#039;t be solved by increasing emigration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s nothing wrong with Social Security that can&#8217;t be solved by increasing emigration.</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd</title>
		<link>http://skepticblog.org/2008/12/23/ponzi-dilemma/#comment-2231</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 08:32:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=739#comment-2231</guid>
		<description>I would like to summarize the comments so far. &quot; I&#039;m so smart, you are stupid and lazy and ignorant. I would have recognized this scam instantly because of my incredible intellect and financial accumen. I don&#039;t feel bad for anyone who was swindled because stupid people deserve it. SS seems to work like a ponzi scheme. You are a dumbass buffoon, it is not like a ponzi scheme. Yes it is, no it isn&#039;t, yes it is, no it isn&#039;t. Why should we be skeptical of anything except religon? Other subjects bore me. Mr. Shermer implied that something I believe is true, is really false. Damn you Shermer, you are a lousy human being, you better research things and make sure you agree with me before you ever print anything again. You have the audacity to criticize the government? Get out of the USA right now! You should not live here if you have ideas that are not the same as 
mine.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like to summarize the comments so far. &#8221; I&#8217;m so smart, you are stupid and lazy and ignorant. I would have recognized this scam instantly because of my incredible intellect and financial accumen. I don&#8217;t feel bad for anyone who was swindled because stupid people deserve it. SS seems to work like a ponzi scheme. You are a dumbass buffoon, it is not like a ponzi scheme. Yes it is, no it isn&#8217;t, yes it is, no it isn&#8217;t. Why should we be skeptical of anything except religon? Other subjects bore me. Mr. Shermer implied that something I believe is true, is really false. Damn you Shermer, you are a lousy human being, you better research things and make sure you agree with me before you ever print anything again. You have the audacity to criticize the government? Get out of the USA right now! You should not live here if you have ideas that are not the same as<br />
mine.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Ridge Runner</title>
		<link>http://skepticblog.org/2008/12/23/ponzi-dilemma/#comment-2219</link>
		<dc:creator>Ridge Runner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 18:32:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=739#comment-2219</guid>
		<description>As one comment above suggests, SS is a &quot;latent&quot; Ponzi scheme, in that the management of the program by current and future governments determines whether the inter-generational transfers continue or collapse due to program mis-management. The &quot;privatization&quot; approach depends on trusting a multitude of individually selected &quot;financial shepherds&quot; to manage the funds, versus trusting the a single centralized state &quot;financial shepherd&quot; to keep the transfer scheme working.

If neither choice can be trusted, you&#039;re on your own. Recent events have certainly impaired both groups, I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As one comment above suggests, SS is a &#8220;latent&#8221; Ponzi scheme, in that the management of the program by current and future governments determines whether the inter-generational transfers continue or collapse due to program mis-management. The &#8220;privatization&#8221; approach depends on trusting a multitude of individually selected &#8220;financial shepherds&#8221; to manage the funds, versus trusting the a single centralized state &#8220;financial shepherd&#8221; to keep the transfer scheme working.</p>
<p>If neither choice can be trusted, you&#8217;re on your own. Recent events have certainly impaired both groups, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian</title>
		<link>http://skepticblog.org/2008/12/23/ponzi-dilemma/#comment-2210</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 20:53:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=739#comment-2210</guid>
		<description>why is it that economics gets twice as much commentary as anything else on this site?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>why is it that economics gets twice as much commentary as anything else on this site?</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Hughes</title>
		<link>http://skepticblog.org/2008/12/23/ponzi-dilemma/#comment-2209</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 20:28:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=739#comment-2209</guid>
		<description>What is disturbing about Madhoff&#039;s ponzi scheme isn&#039;t that any one individual 
fell for such a thing - history tells us poignantly anyone can - but rather that the 
institutional systems put in place couldn&#039;t detect it. Many who were duped
were institutional investors who are suppose to have proper protocols, procedures and systems in place to guard against human gullibility. On top of that, the SEC is suppose
to be another safeguard. None of these safeguards worked. The system completely
failed. I do believe the system should have caught it. That&#039;s the real story.  

But to your question, I agree that it is perfectly reasonable that an individual would
be taken in by this. After all, Warren Buffet has been chalking up more impressive 
returns for a longer period of time than Madhoff, so there is evidence it can be done. 
I have a harsher opinion of those who over allocated to his fund, however. The
person who put all or nearly all, or even 30%, of his cash with Madhoff is guilty of 
the greatest level of gullibility - believing that he knows what he doesn&#039;t know. 

As you point out, diversification is the answer.  But speaking more deeply, it&#039;s about one guarding against his own inability to know by taking precautionary steps such as diversification, even if it means giving up attractive performance. Incidentally, this is where I disagree with Greenspan&#039;s analysis. He says that he doesn&#039;t believe he was being greedy because he wasn&#039;t looking for &quot;get rich&quot; returns, but in the context that I speak, he was greedy because he invested too much money on the &quot;best hoarse.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is disturbing about Madhoff&#8217;s ponzi scheme isn&#8217;t that any one individual<br />
fell for such a thing &#8211; history tells us poignantly anyone can &#8211; but rather that the<br />
institutional systems put in place couldn&#8217;t detect it. Many who were duped<br />
were institutional investors who are suppose to have proper protocols, procedures and systems in place to guard against human gullibility. On top of that, the SEC is suppose<br />
to be another safeguard. None of these safeguards worked. The system completely<br />
failed. I do believe the system should have caught it. That&#8217;s the real story.  </p>
<p>But to your question, I agree that it is perfectly reasonable that an individual would<br />
be taken in by this. After all, Warren Buffet has been chalking up more impressive<br />
returns for a longer period of time than Madhoff, so there is evidence it can be done.<br />
I have a harsher opinion of those who over allocated to his fund, however. The<br />
person who put all or nearly all, or even 30%, of his cash with Madhoff is guilty of<br />
the greatest level of gullibility &#8211; believing that he knows what he doesn&#8217;t know. </p>
<p>As you point out, diversification is the answer.  But speaking more deeply, it&#8217;s about one guarding against his own inability to know by taking precautionary steps such as diversification, even if it means giving up attractive performance. Incidentally, this is where I disagree with Greenspan&#8217;s analysis. He says that he doesn&#8217;t believe he was being greedy because he wasn&#8217;t looking for &#8220;get rich&#8221; returns, but in the context that I speak, he was greedy because he invested too much money on the &#8220;best hoarse.&#8221;</p>
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