Comments on: A Non-Debate with a Young Earth Creationist http://skepticblog.org/2008/10/30/a-non-debate-with-a-young-earth-creationist/ The official blog of the Skeptologists Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:33:18 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: CharlesP http://skepticblog.org/2008/10/30/a-non-debate-with-a-young-earth-creationist/#comment-5152 CharlesP Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:48:54 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=107#comment-5152 I just have to chime in (several months late to the original discussion so it probably won't be read, but I feel compelled anyway) that I consider myself one of those people who were deprived of career opportunities because of the beliefs I was raised in. I bought into the whole YEC thing for years, having never attended a public school (church schools all the way) until one semester of community college which didn't even include a science course. It wasn't until I was nearly 30, with a third kid on the way, that I really started looking at the evidence for age of the universe and evolution. What had been a somewhat skeptical and tentative christianity for the past decade became a theistic evolution worldview, a deistic evolution, then agnostic, and now atheist. The problem for me was that because of my parent's belief I was kept in schools which didn't present any of this information and though I had a reasonable level of mathematical/scientific thinking ability it was never a path I could really explore in my youth when all those school opportunities are open to you. I'm a self taught programmer for a living these days so I may have retained some of the brain function, but, while in theory I could go back to school and change careers, for the time being, I need to do the work that feeds the family. Many, most even, of my friends (and all of my family) are still religious, and I don't consider all of them to be idiots, but it does pain me to hear them talk about literal interpretations of biblical "history". I'm now struggling with how to handle this in regards to my children (and my quite religious wife). I just have to chime in (several months late to the original discussion so it probably won’t be read, but I feel compelled anyway) that I consider myself one of those people who were deprived of career opportunities because of the beliefs I was raised in. I bought into the whole YEC thing for years, having never attended a public school (church schools all the way) until one semester of community college which didn’t even include a science course.

It wasn’t until I was nearly 30, with a third kid on the way, that I really started looking at the evidence for age of the universe and evolution. What had been a somewhat skeptical and tentative christianity for the past decade became a theistic evolution worldview, a deistic evolution, then agnostic, and now atheist. The problem for me was that because of my parent’s belief I was kept in schools which didn’t present any of this information and though I had a reasonable level of mathematical/scientific thinking ability it was never a path I could really explore in my youth when all those school opportunities are open to you. I’m a self taught programmer for a living these days so I may have retained some of the brain function, but, while in theory I could go back to school and change careers, for the time being, I need to do the work that feeds the family.

Many, most even, of my friends (and all of my family) are still religious, and I don’t consider all of them to be idiots, but it does pain me to hear them talk about literal interpretations of biblical “history”. I’m now struggling with how to handle this in regards to my children (and my quite religious wife).

]]> By: George Stearns http://skepticblog.org/2008/10/30/a-non-debate-with-a-young-earth-creationist/#comment-1954 George Stearns Thu, 25 Dec 2008 06:14:50 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=107#comment-1954 Bridging the bible and science is not hard, fundamentalism though is a different matter. When I was young I was a Catholic believer, now I am an atheist. The bible can be believed as mans explanation for the world as understood at the time. In general, it is not a bad attempt, even though over time the explanations have become more clear. God is mans explanation for those things that he does not understand. The stories in the bible were the equivalent our classrooms today. Most of the time we teach our students what we have learned but not how the things we know have been found out. As a result they take our word for it without developing the critical skills it takes to question other things they are told. When some of the things they learn as young people are fantastic, it appeals to their imaginations and just becomes one more (fact) in their life, who can blame them. It becomes a real problem because it sets a pattern which most carry through life. Bridging the bible and science is not hard, fundamentalism though is a different matter. When I was young I was a Catholic believer, now I am an atheist. The bible can be believed as mans explanation for the world as understood at the time. In general, it is not a bad attempt, even though over time the explanations have become more clear. God is mans explanation for those things that he does not understand. The stories in the bible were the equivalent our classrooms today. Most of the time we teach our students what we have learned but not how the things we know have been found out. As a result they take our word for it without developing the critical skills it takes to question other things they are told. When some of the things they learn as young people are fantastic, it appeals to their imaginations and just becomes one more (fact) in their life, who can blame them. It becomes a real problem because it sets a pattern which most carry through life.

]]> By: John Vezina http://skepticblog.org/2008/10/30/a-non-debate-with-a-young-earth-creationist/#comment-839 John Vezina Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:02:29 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=107#comment-839 The inability of believers to accept evidence boggles my mind even today. It boggles my mind even though I also was once a believer. I don't have an answer to this interesting question, but perhaps I might give a few clues as to why creationists can't accept the evidence. 1. They are aware of contradictions in their faith, but believe that further study or discoveries will vindicate their faith. 2. They are told that prophecy declares that in these times many deceivers will arise trying to destroy the faith so that even the "elite" will be at risk. They believe that somehow modern scientific arguments are part of that deception and they just aren't smart enough to see through the deception, hence they fall back on the 'word of God.' 3. Modern science is too complex to understand. Who has access to actual fossils or the resources to duplicate physics experiment at home? The only way is to go through the education system past the graduate Ph.D. level and then MAYBE you might get to see for yourself. 4. The 'good' in Christianity is so very very good, but it is mixed in with rubbish. It's hard to separate the two and still keep some sort of spirituality going. 5. I once feared that if I let go of the Bible and it's teachings, that I would no longer be a 'moral' person. I now know that I don't need a God to be moral. I assume that other people have or had the same fear. I could go on and on but I want to keep this as short as possible. The bottom line is that I was once brainwashed too but I pulled my own self up with my own boot straps and dug very deeply into it in order to finally and forever shed the slavery of religion. By the way, the comments by Forrest (47, 48, 49) that Christians will 'get it' is probably not likely. I agree with his approach that proving the Bible false, or partly false is an essential first step. But I don't like his writing style as it seems just as extreme as fanatical evangelists. The inability of believers to accept evidence boggles my mind even today. It boggles my mind even though I also was once a believer. I don’t have an answer to this interesting question, but perhaps I might give a few clues as to why creationists can’t accept the evidence.

1. They are aware of contradictions in their faith, but believe that further study or discoveries will vindicate their faith.
2. They are told that prophecy declares that in these times many deceivers will arise trying to destroy the faith so that even the “elite” will be at risk. They believe that somehow modern scientific arguments are part of that deception and they just aren’t smart enough to see through the deception, hence they fall back on the ‘word of God.’
3. Modern science is too complex to understand. Who has access to actual fossils or the resources to duplicate physics experiment at home? The only way is to go through the education system past the graduate Ph.D. level and then MAYBE you might get to see for yourself.
4. The ‘good’ in Christianity is so very very good, but it is mixed in with rubbish. It’s hard to separate the two and still keep some sort of spirituality going.
5. I once feared that if I let go of the Bible and it’s teachings, that I would no longer be a ‘moral’ person. I now know that I don’t need a God to be moral. I assume that other people have or had the same fear.

I could go on and on but I want to keep this as short as possible.

The bottom line is that I was once brainwashed too but I pulled my own self up with my own boot straps and dug very deeply into it in order to finally and forever shed the slavery of religion.

By the way, the comments by Forrest (47, 48, 49) that Christians will ‘get it’ is probably not likely. I agree with his approach that proving the Bible false, or partly false is an essential first step. But I don’t like his writing style as it seems just as extreme as fanatical evangelists.

]]> By: Forrest http://skepticblog.org/2008/10/30/a-non-debate-with-a-young-earth-creationist/#comment-568 Forrest Fri, 07 Nov 2008 03:02:30 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=107#comment-568 DAMN please forgive my spelling and typos... of course I meant moot and who knows, I am writing fast and not really paying much attention. DAMN please forgive my spelling and typos… of course I meant moot and who knows, I am writing fast and not really paying much attention.

]]> By: Forrest http://skepticblog.org/2008/10/30/a-non-debate-with-a-young-earth-creationist/#comment-567 Forrest Fri, 07 Nov 2008 03:00:53 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=107#comment-567 Arrrgh I left stuff out. NOAH. Noah entered the ark at 600 years old. He left the Ark at 601. If that isn't incredible enough, he had three sons and three daughters-in-law that repopulated the WHOLE EARTH. Okay, that being said, you must realize that the Australian aborigines have been isolated from the other humans on the Earth for TENS OF THOUSANDS of years, perhaps 20 to even 40 thousand years. Which means that our connection to them FAR pre-dates the Noah and the Ark Story. (Just for fun, try wondering what happened to Noah's funeral? After all this would have taken place about 4,050 years ago and he was the father of all mankind). Okay, Once most persons ARE convinced that science is correct about Noah and their ministers are frankly, nothing but a bunch of liars, you will end the battle of evolution versus creationism (or the red herring intelligent design) Whether they still with to believe in an intelligent designer or not truly becomes mute, at least with this issue. IF YOU WANT TO KNOW ANYTHING MORE ABOUT THE DEPROGRAMMING OF BRAINWASHED CHRISTIANS, PLEASE CONTACT ME I don't know mind if you have my e-mail. It is emeraldsforest@hotmail.com Arrrgh I left stuff out.

NOAH. Noah entered the ark at 600 years old. He left the Ark at 601. If that isn’t incredible enough, he had three sons and three daughters-in-law that repopulated the WHOLE EARTH. Okay, that being said, you must realize that the Australian aborigines have been isolated from the other humans on the Earth for TENS OF THOUSANDS of years, perhaps 20 to even 40 thousand years. Which means that our connection to them FAR pre-dates the Noah and the Ark Story.

(Just for fun, try wondering what happened to Noah’s funeral? After all this would have taken place about 4,050 years ago and he was the father of all mankind).

Okay, Once most persons ARE convinced that science is correct about Noah and their ministers are frankly, nothing but a bunch of liars, you will end the battle of evolution versus creationism (or the red herring intelligent design) Whether they still with to believe in an intelligent designer or not truly becomes mute, at least with this issue.

IF YOU WANT TO KNOW ANYTHING MORE ABOUT THE DEPROGRAMMING OF BRAINWASHED CHRISTIANS, PLEASE CONTACT ME

I don’t know mind if you have my e-mail. It is emeraldsforest@hotmail.com

]]> By: Forrest http://skepticblog.org/2008/10/30/a-non-debate-with-a-young-earth-creationist/#comment-566 Forrest Fri, 07 Nov 2008 02:48:43 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=107#comment-566 LETS TALK GENETICS~~!! Why are we in all of these ridiculous evolution debates today? It is simple in a very complex way. Most christian peoples ARE brainwashed to believe the way they do and I'm told approximately 45% of all christians becamse so as a child, (Or maybe born-again christians). In any case, I am a person who was a FULL ON born-again christian brainwashed into believing, praying, etcetera until I was 32. I fully realize WHY and how all of these wars against evolution happen. Mostly it is because the MINISTERS, Priests, etc, know that if they are found out, the churches will simply implode and they will be out of ways to earn megabucks. Sound far fetched? Well it isn't. If you are one of those who believe that you simply can't change the mind of the bible believer, think again. There are now THOUSANDS of atheists who used to be fully into christianity as myself who like you get frustrated and blown away at the backlash and resistance to listen to facts and reason. But you CAN do it and you must to help save the minds of our youth from utter ignorance and stunting them from knowing the truth about life. BREAKING THE BIBLE = GOD CYCLE One of the most powerful things we can do today is let the WORLD KNOW that the Old Testament is proven not to be true beyond any shadow of doubt. As a fundamentalist christian you are taught that the bible is holy, it is infallible, and there is NO WAY to prove it untrue. In fact, many people think that the bible almost if not totally equals "God". Today's skeptic may think, we have already done this, true... but we get off track and we let the ministers gain vast ground by not sticking to the point we are not gaining much ground. TEACH PEOPLE THAT THE BIBLE IS PROVEN TO BE FALSE BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT THROUGH SCIENCE. IT IS POINTLESS TO ARGUE EVOLUTION WITH THESE PEOPLE WITHOUT DISPROVING THE BIBLE FIRST! These christians who are fundamentalist and are pushing the agenda to take evolution out of the schools ALSO believe that if the bible is in err ANYWHERE, then they MUST question the entire bible. This IS the way they believe. This is a Call to ALL SCIENTISTS to stick to the point of proving through proof positive science, that the bible isn't true. WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO PROVE THE BIBLE HAS UNTRUE STORIES TODAY? ANSWER: GENETICS! THE GOOD NEWS? If you listen to me, and I certainly hope Richard Dawkins gets a hold of this and Michael Schermer, you will find that today's technology IS NOW AVAILABLE to prove the bible has one major story that is false through Genetics. That is Noah and the Ark. I know that most of you realize that there are millions of reasons why Noah and the Ark simply could not have happened, but I feel the strongest argument is yet to be had about this story.... genetics. WILL THE BRAINWASHED CHRISTIANS GET IT? YES, THEY MOST CERTAINLY WILL. WHAT DO WE DO? First, know the difference between the age of the Earth and the Age of humans on the Earth according to the bible. There are many fundamentalists who do not believe the Earth is 6,ooo years old and they don't think this matters. BUT THEY ALL BELIEVE that Adam and Eve were created by God and MILLIONS OF THEM KNOW that the bible is dated by listing the ages and lines of persons there. This means that Noah and the Ark, for BOTH FUNDAMENTALISTS that believe the Earth is 6,000 years and for those who believe the Earth is much older, TOOK PLACE ABOUT 4,350 YEARS AGO. I REPEAT. ALL of the charlatans and brainwashed that you debate CANNOT REFUTE that the Noah and the Ark Story took place 4,350 years ago. DO NOT LET THIS GO. REPEAT THIS OVER AND OVER AGAIN UNTIL YOU GET IT! THE ANSWER AGAIN IS GENETICS! HOW? Today we have the ability to see where people came from through genetic testing. We know for instance that Oprah is from the western part of Africa. Well, ALL HUMANS ON THE EARTH, ACCORDING TO FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS CAME FROM NOAH FOUR THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED & FIFTY YEARS AGO. SO? you ask? Let me tell you. It is very simple. Get genetic testing done comparing ABORIGINES IN AUSTRALIA to WHITES IN THE UNITED STATES. What will you find? That there is NO WAY we are related to these aboriginal peoples even TEN THOUSAND YEARS AGO, even TWENTY THOUSAND YEARS AGO. Perhaps it would be thirty or even forty thousand years ago. Now I am sure there are those of you out there who may know wealthy persons in the cause that can GET THIS WORK DONE and DO IT QUICKLY. But even without it THIS WILL TERRORIZE THE FUNDAMENTALIST CHARLATANS AND LIARS! They simply WILL NOT be able to get out of this one. Only the most severely brainwashed will still adhere to their "faith". Hope you enjoyed this.... now get off your lazy .... and GET TO WORK! Look, my point is, LETS TALK GENETICS~~!!

Why are we in all of these ridiculous evolution debates today? It is simple in a very complex way. Most christian peoples ARE brainwashed to believe the way they do and I’m told approximately 45% of all christians becamse so as a child, (Or maybe born-again christians).

In any case, I am a person who was a FULL ON born-again christian brainwashed into believing, praying, etcetera until I was 32. I fully realize WHY and how all of these wars against evolution happen. Mostly it is because the MINISTERS, Priests, etc, know that if they are found out, the churches will simply implode and they will be out of ways to earn megabucks. Sound far fetched? Well it isn’t.

If you are one of those who believe that you simply can’t change the mind of the bible believer, think again. There are now THOUSANDS of atheists who used to be fully into christianity as myself who like you get frustrated and blown away at the backlash and resistance to listen to facts and reason. But you CAN do it and you must to help save the minds of our youth from utter ignorance and stunting them from knowing the truth about life.

BREAKING THE BIBLE = GOD CYCLE

One of the most powerful things we can do today is let the WORLD KNOW that the Old Testament is proven not to be true beyond any shadow of doubt. As a fundamentalist christian you are taught that the bible is holy, it is infallible, and there is NO WAY to prove it untrue. In fact, many people think that the bible almost if not totally equals “God”. Today’s skeptic may think, we have already done this, true… but we get off track and we let the ministers gain vast ground by not sticking to the point we are not gaining much ground.

TEACH PEOPLE THAT THE BIBLE IS PROVEN TO BE FALSE BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT THROUGH SCIENCE. IT IS POINTLESS TO ARGUE EVOLUTION WITH THESE PEOPLE WITHOUT DISPROVING THE BIBLE FIRST! These christians who are fundamentalist and are pushing the agenda to take evolution out of the schools ALSO believe that if the bible is in err ANYWHERE, then they MUST question the entire bible. This IS the way they believe. This is a Call to ALL SCIENTISTS to stick to the point of proving through proof positive science, that the bible isn’t true.

WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO PROVE THE BIBLE HAS UNTRUE STORIES TODAY?

ANSWER: GENETICS!

THE GOOD NEWS? If you listen to me, and I certainly hope Richard Dawkins gets a hold of this and Michael Schermer, you will find that today’s technology IS NOW AVAILABLE to prove the bible has one major story that is false through Genetics. That is Noah and the Ark.

I know that most of you realize that there are millions of reasons why Noah and the Ark simply could not have happened, but I feel the strongest argument is yet to be had about this story…. genetics.

WILL THE BRAINWASHED CHRISTIANS GET IT? YES, THEY MOST CERTAINLY WILL.

WHAT DO WE DO?

First, know the difference between the age of the Earth and the Age of humans on the Earth according to the bible. There are many fundamentalists who do not believe the Earth is 6,ooo years old and they don’t think this matters. BUT THEY ALL BELIEVE that Adam and Eve were created by God and MILLIONS OF THEM KNOW that the bible is dated by listing the ages and lines of persons there. This means that Noah and the Ark, for BOTH FUNDAMENTALISTS that believe the Earth is 6,000 years and for those who believe the Earth is much older, TOOK PLACE ABOUT 4,350 YEARS AGO. I REPEAT. ALL of the charlatans and brainwashed that you debate CANNOT REFUTE that the Noah and the Ark Story took place 4,350 years ago. DO NOT LET THIS GO. REPEAT THIS OVER AND OVER AGAIN UNTIL YOU GET IT!

THE ANSWER AGAIN IS GENETICS! HOW? Today we have the ability to see where people came from through genetic testing. We know for instance that Oprah is from the western part of Africa.

Well, ALL HUMANS ON THE EARTH, ACCORDING TO FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS CAME FROM NOAH FOUR THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED & FIFTY YEARS AGO.

SO? you ask? Let me tell you. It is very simple. Get genetic testing done comparing ABORIGINES IN AUSTRALIA to WHITES IN THE UNITED STATES. What will you find? That there is NO WAY we are related to these aboriginal peoples even TEN THOUSAND YEARS AGO, even TWENTY THOUSAND YEARS AGO. Perhaps it would be thirty or even forty thousand years ago.

Now I am sure there are those of you out there who may know wealthy persons in the cause that can GET THIS WORK DONE and DO IT QUICKLY. But even without it THIS WILL TERRORIZE THE FUNDAMENTALIST CHARLATANS AND LIARS! They simply WILL NOT be able to get out of this one. Only the most severely brainwashed will still adhere to their “faith”.

Hope you enjoyed this…. now get off your lazy …. and GET TO WORK!

Look, my point is,

]]> By: jimboforreason http://skepticblog.org/2008/10/30/a-non-debate-with-a-young-earth-creationist/#comment-461 jimboforreason Tue, 04 Nov 2008 08:24:21 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=107#comment-461 I was at my son's soccer game last fall, enjoying the beautiful game. He goes to an American school outside of London, England. It is a fantastic school (ivy covered walls, flowere beds, pea gravel walkways) with fantastic students. Many of the American families there are from Texas...working for BP, Shell, other oil companies. I got to talking to one of the Dads (from Texas) on the touchline. He is an engineer. He asked me what I did. "I write and teach about science and science understanding." He pressed me a bit. "Do you write about creationism?" I told him I had...as a science educator in Kentucky I wrote several scathing articles about the new creation museum in Kentucky and how it has become the de facto science center for the Christian homeschool movement in my state. After explaining this to him he said, "Well, I am one of those creationists." Whoops. After pulling my foot out of my mouth, looking out at the soccer pitch, I asked, "Do we have two goals or one?" I was at my son’s soccer game last fall, enjoying the beautiful game. He goes to an American school outside of London, England. It is a fantastic school (ivy covered walls, flowere beds, pea gravel walkways) with fantastic students. Many of the American families there are from Texas…working for BP, Shell, other oil companies. I got to talking to one of the Dads (from Texas) on the touchline. He is an engineer. He asked me what I did. “I write and teach about science and science understanding.” He pressed me a bit. “Do you write about creationism?” I told him I had…as a science educator in Kentucky I wrote several scathing articles about the new creation museum in Kentucky and how it has become the de facto science center for the Christian homeschool movement in my state. After explaining this to him he said, “Well, I am one of those creationists.” Whoops. After pulling my foot out of my mouth, looking out at the soccer pitch, I asked, “Do we have two goals or one?”

]]> By: Kim http://skepticblog.org/2008/10/30/a-non-debate-with-a-young-earth-creationist/#comment-456 Kim Tue, 04 Nov 2008 04:01:37 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=107#comment-456 @41 "Since there wasn’t one, it’s a fair followup question to ask how Bill and his ilk can be so arrogant as to believe the words of a few fallible humans with limited vocabularies and to ignore God’s direct evidence in the rocks and living things around us." I have been wondering this very thing myself. Do they have a pat answer for it yet? @41 “Since there wasn’t one, it’s a fair followup question to ask how Bill and his ilk can be so arrogant as to believe the words of a few fallible humans with limited vocabularies and to ignore God’s direct evidence in the rocks and living things around us.”

I have been wondering this very thing myself. Do they have a pat answer for it yet?

]]> By: sonic http://skepticblog.org/2008/10/30/a-non-debate-with-a-young-earth-creationist/#comment-448 sonic Mon, 03 Nov 2008 23:51:05 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=107#comment-448 I don't believe your claim that belief would limit career opportunities is based on the best evidence. On a different note- While I may agree that this persons 'how it all started' myth is odd or hard to believe, do you know of a 'how it all started myth' that isn't? I don’t believe your claim that belief would limit career opportunities is based on the best evidence.
On a different note-
While I may agree that this persons ‘how it all started’ myth is odd or hard to believe, do you know of a ‘how it all started myth’ that isn’t?

]]> By: Jim Brock http://skepticblog.org/2008/10/30/a-non-debate-with-a-young-earth-creationist/#comment-426 Jim Brock Mon, 03 Nov 2008 04:51:30 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=107#comment-426 The Jehovah's Witnesses believe it is their duty to spread the gospel to every corner of the world, so that "the end may come". I respect the sincerity of these people; it is their lack of intellectual honesty that bothers me. I have had numerous discussions with Witnesses about their interpretation of the Bible, and alwys came away with the feeling that they not only couldn't think but that they couldn't read. Not to mention that the Bible was written by many sources and probably had some funny stuff added along the way. The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe it is their duty to spread the gospel to every corner of the world, so that “the end may come”. I respect the sincerity of these people; it is their lack of intellectual honesty that bothers me. I have had numerous discussions with Witnesses about their interpretation of the Bible, and alwys came away with the feeling that they not only couldn’t think but that they couldn’t read.

Not to mention that the Bible was written by many sources and probably had some funny stuff added along the way.

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